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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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RFC: Filter for Jr. |
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Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 13,202 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting skipnet50: Quote: Tim:
I think we have some users who simply want to make nuch ado about nothing and have not really sat down and given this much thought. (...)
Since you seem to agree with T!M, and he continues to dodge the question, what 'standard capitalization rules' do you use when converting names that are in all caps? I really am interested in a factual, non-opinion based, answer. There is a chance, though because of my parsing nature it is a small chance, that I have missed something. And, yes, I have given this a lot of thought...much more than it probably deserves. 'DeVito' isn't the only name that is in question. As examples how do you enter 'FRANCES MCDORMAND'? How about 'TATUM O'NEAL' or 'DYLAN MCDERMOTT' or 'EWAN MCGREGOR' or 'SETH MACFARLANE'? I know how I would enter them, but I follow 'standard capitalization rules'. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever. There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom. Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand. The Centauri learned this lesson once. We will teach it to them again. Though it take a thousand years, we will be free. - Citizen G'Kar |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 13,202 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote: Quoting Unicus69:
Quote: Instead you keep repeating, the false statement, that you are copying the credits exactly as seen on-screen. I'll say to you what I said to Hal: Imagine for a second that you're, say, Chinese, you don't know these Hollywood stars, and all those silly Western letters don't mean anything to you. Now how on earth would you arrive at entering "DEVITO" as "DeVito"?! You wouldn't: there's nothing on the screen that suggests that in any way, and I really feel that no outside knowledge, documentation or whatever should be needed to simply copy a set of credits from the screen into DVD Profiler. In other words, you are ignoring the part of the rule that tells you to use standard capitalization rules. Thanks for clearing that up. I did, however, come up with another question... You state that you will enter 'DANNY DEVITO' as "Danny DeVito [Danny Devito], storing both the common name and the actual on-screen credit in the profile..." Where, exactly, is that common name coming from? It sure isn't coming from the CLT as the CLT does not 'see' differences in capitalization. If you can't "invent a capital "V" out of thin air," how can you invent a common name out of that same 'thin air'? | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever. There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom. Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand. The Centauri learned this lesson once. We will teach it to them again. Though it take a thousand years, we will be free. - Citizen G'Kar | | | Last edited: by TheMadMartian |
| | T!M | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 8,736 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Unicus69: Quote: In other words, you are ignoring the part of the rule that tells you to use standard capitalization rules. Thanks for clearing that up. I did, however, come up with another question... In other words: you're dodging the question. You cannot possibly arrive at entering "DEVITO" as "DeVito" without outside knowledge. You're mixing up "standard capitalization rules" with "applying what you know to be correct". And we don't do that - not in the "credited as" field at least. Quoting Unicus69: Quote: Where, exactly, is that common name coming from? Now you don't even agree that "Danny DeVito" is the man's common name?! Couldn't you at least keep the discussion on a semi-serious level? <Sigh>I added it, obviously, the way we add all common names: I established that the name variants "Danny Devito" and "Danny DeVito" refer to the same person (visually confirmed myself, if you really want to know), and then I used the CLT to establish which variant he's mostly credited as. That is, due to the limitations of the CLT, a bit more work then it usually is, but the fact that he's credited as "Devito" only 3 out of 32 appearances throughout my own collection gave me a head start. Indeed, "Danny DeVito" is the most-credited form, so that's the common name. How is this significant in any way? | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 6,635 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote: Quoting Unicus69:
Quote: Instead you keep repeating, the false statement, that you are copying the credits exactly as seen on-screen. I'll say to you what I said to Hal: Imagine for a second that you're, say, Chinese, you don't know these Hollywood stars, and all those silly Western letters don't mean anything to you. Now how on earth would you arrive at entering "DEVITO" as "DeVito"?! You wouldn't, not in a million years: there's absolutely nothing on the screen that suggests that in any way, and I really feel that no outside knowledge, documentation or whatever should be needed to simply copy a set of credits from the screen into DVD Profiler.
Well, it's that outlook on "standard capitalization rules" I apply to cast and crew credits (and role names, too) that are shown in ALL-CAPS on-screen. I start every part of the name with a capital, and unless some form of highlighting indicates otherwise, I convert all subsequent letters of each part to lowercase. I don't assume anything, I don't apply what I think I know, nor do I apply any other form of outside documentation. And what do you know? It works! It's the only approach that works accross the board: whether I'm profiling a major Hollywood blockbuster or some hardly-known Italian cult-film... And yet you enter "DANNY DeVITO" as "Danny DeVito". You still haven't explained how you arrive at that conclusion. Since it is not in ALL CAPS, why aren't you copying it exactly? Oh, that's right...it's a personal preference! | | | Hal |
| Registered: March 14, 2007 | Posts: 2,366 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting RHo: Quote: Quoting Daddy DVD:
Quote: If standard capitalization means the real name has to be used instead of the grammatically correct one I'm all for it. What's a grammatically correct proper name? A name with only the first letters capitalized. | | | Martin Zuidervliet
DVD Profiler Nederlands |
| | T!M | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 8,736 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote: And yet you enter "DANNY DeVITO" as "Danny DeVito". You still haven't explained how you arrive at that conclusion. Since it is not in ALL CAPS, why aren't you copying it exactly?
Oh, that's right...it's a personal preference! Dodging the question as well, I see... Why am I not surprised? Anyway: I'm not going to explain it again, as I addressed this in the very post you quoted! It's, presumably, the exact same reason why you would enter "DANNY DeVITO" as "Danny DeVito" yourself - again, I fail to understand how this line of reasoning helps things ahead... | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 6,635 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Daddy DVD: Quote: Quoting RHo:
Quote: Quoting Daddy DVD:
Quote: If standard capitalization means the real name has to be used instead of the grammatically correct one I'm all for it. What's a grammatically correct proper name? A name with only the first letters capitalized. Although Unicus has cited some language that describes how they are commonly capitalized, I would argue that there are no "standard capitalization rules" for people's names period. Who exactly would enforce such rules? The very idea is somewhat ludicrous. | | | Hal |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 6,635 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote: Quoting hal9g:
Quote: And yet you enter "DANNY DeVITO" as "Danny DeVito". You still haven't explained how you arrive at that conclusion. Since it is not in ALL CAPS, why aren't you copying it exactly?
Oh, that's right...it's a personal preference! Dodging the question as well, I see... Why am I not surprised? Anyway: I'm not going to explain it again: I addressed this in the very post you quoted! No you haven't. The Rules only tell you to apply "standard capitalization rules" to names in ALL CAPS. This variant is not in all caps, so changing some of the letters to lower case is DEFINITELY a personal preference and contrary to the Rules. | | | Hal | | | Last edited: by hal9g |
| Registered: March 14, 2007 | Posts: 2,366 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote: Although Unicus has cited some language that describes how they are commonly capitalized, I would argue that there are no "standard capitalization rules" for people's names period.
Who exactly would enforce such rules? The very idea is somewhat ludicrous. If there aren't "standard capitalization rules" for people's names, as you would argue about, then why does the rules mentions them? Surely standard just refers to a starting point, without knowing a particular person's preference, from which you can enter the name in a certain fashion. | | | Martin Zuidervliet
DVD Profiler Nederlands |
| | T!M | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 8,736 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Daddy DVD: Quote: Quoting hal9g:
Quote: Although Unicus has cited some language that describes how they are commonly capitalized, I would argue that there are no "standard capitalization rules" for people's names period.
Who exactly would enforce such rules? The very idea is somewhat ludicrous. If there aren't "standard capitalization rules" for people's names, as you would argue about, then why does the rules mentions them? Surely standard just refers to a starting point, without knowing a particular person's preference, from which you can enter the name in a certain fashion. Exactly! And only truly universal starting point, as I tried to show with my Chinese example, for an on-screen of "ABCDEF GHIJKLMNOP" is "Abcdef Ghijklmnop". No additional knowledge required, no documented "real" or "correct" names, no interpretation coloured by anyone's cultural background - just a universal starting point that is exactly the same for everyone. | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 6,635 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote: Quoting Daddy DVD:
Quote: Quoting hal9g:
Quote: Although Unicus has cited some language that describes how they are commonly capitalized, I would argue that there are no "standard capitalization rules" for people's names period.
Who exactly would enforce such rules? The very idea is somewhat ludicrous. If there aren't "standard capitalization rules" for people's names, as you would argue about, then why does the rules mentions them? Surely standard just refers to a starting point, without knowing a particular person's preference, from which you can enter the name in a certain fashion. Exactly! And only truly universal starting point, as I tried to show with my Chinese example, for an on-screen of "ABCDEF GHIJKLMNOP" is "Abcdef Ghijklmnop". No additional knowledge required, no documented "real" or "correct" names, no interpretation coloured by anyone's cultural background - just a universal starting point that is exactly the same for everyone. Please provide a reference which defines this method as "Standard Capitalization Rules" for people's names. Without that, it is nothing but your personal preference as to how it should be done. | | | Hal |
| Registered: March 14, 2007 | Posts: 2,366 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote: This variant is not in all caps, so changing some of the letters to lower case is DEFINITELY a personal preference and contrary to the Rules. Yes that's right, it shows us the preference of the person of whom it belongs to. In a similar manner McCAIN shows us that the name has to be written as McCain in low caps and not as Mccain. | | | Martin Zuidervliet
DVD Profiler Nederlands |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 6,635 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Daddy DVD: Quote: Quoting hal9g:
Quote: This variant is not in all caps, so changing some of the letters to lower case is DEFINITELY a personal preference and contrary to the Rules. Yes that's right, it shows us the preference of the person of whom it belongs to. In a similar manner McCAIN shows us that the name has to be written as McCain in low caps and not as Mccain. That would be the logical conclusion, however, that is not what the Rules instruct us to do, and fortunately, in the end it doesn't matter since DVDP will still link them either way. | | | Hal | | | Last edited: by hal9g |
| | T!M | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 8,736 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote: Please provide a reference which defines this method as "Standard Capitalization Rules" for people's names. Unlike others, you won't see me referring to anything outside our own contribution rules - people doing that is the source of almost all problems we have here (remember the whole "a song must have lyrics" debacle?). And it's happening here again: you just said "I would argue that there are no "standard capitalization rules" for people's names period.", and yet you're looking for a definition for that what you feel doesn't exist. I've told you what the single universal approach to de-capitalizing an all-caps credit is: "ABCDEF GHIJKLMNOP" becomes "Abcdef Ghijklmnop". It's not so much my preference, but simply the ONLY method that works accross the board. Again: no additional knowledge required, no documented "real" or "correct" names, no interpretation coloured by anyone's cultural background - just a universal starting point that is exactly the same for everyone. |
| | T!M | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 8,736 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote: Quoting Daddy DVD:
Quote: Quoting hal9g:
Quote: This variant is not in all caps, so changing some of the letters to lower case is DEFINITELY a personal preference and contrary to the Rules. Yes that's right, it shows us the preference of the person of whom it belongs to. In a similar manner McCAIN shows us that the name has to be written as McCain in low caps and not as Mccain.
That would be the logical conclusion, however, that is not what the Rules instruct us to do, and fortunately, in the end it doesn't matter since DVDP will still link them either way. You feel that's not what the rules instruct us to do? Are you honestly saying you would not contribute "JOHN McCAIN" as "John McCain"?! |
| Registered: March 14, 2007 | Posts: 2,366 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote: That would be the logical conclusion, however, that is not what the Rules instruct us to do, and fortunately, in the end it doesn't matter since DVDP will still link them either way. To ignore a rule because it only refers to credits which are entirely capitalized would be illogical. | | | Martin Zuidervliet
DVD Profiler Nederlands |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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