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What I would want...
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DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
Alien with an attitude
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
United States Posts: 13,202
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Quoting GSyren:
Quote:
Some of us would like to change the music before the orchestra is reduced to a quartet... 

For the record, I have no problem with that.  It is why we have a Rules forum.
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 21,610
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For the record both Gunnar and surfeur have chaffed at the rules for years. Gunnar seems to prefer the Guidelines style, Surfeur very clearly does, and that is the problem I have with both of them. Surfeur clearly has no problem with Guidelines and no interest in an accurate product for the Online as long as it follows what he wants to be able to do qwith it which has absolutely nothing to do with accuracy or consistency. He is a fan of user-imagined data that has absolutely no basis in anything that is based on real data. As I have said I would make the Rules a whole lot tighter than they are now, I don't want to see surfeur's imaginary data, nor any other users' in any form.

Skip
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
Invelos Software, Inc. RepresentativeForum Moderator
Invelos Forum Moderator
Registered: March 11, 2009
Posts: 211
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Ok, folks this is heading into very dangerous territory. Let others speak their own opinions on the rules as they stand.
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
Alien with an attitude
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
United States Posts: 13,202
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Quoting Taro:
Quote:
I see a few posts above, you blame other users for not stepping in when things went wrong, not taking the bull by the horns. Well, now that some users ARE taking the bull by the horns and pointing out problems in the current version of the rules, they generally get the same response by a small but vocal group of users:
- who are you to talk with your puny collection?

I hope that isn't aimed at me because that is not what I said.  What I said was, before those of us who will be affected the least decide on a 'fix', we should consider those that will be affected the most.  Never did I question your right to talk.
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 21,610
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Taro:

The issue is not grabbing the bull by the horns. There are two issues, (1) the carping of those who want to go backwards with the Rules instead of forward, going back towards the Guidelines would be one of the single most destructive things that could happen to this database. (2) everybody wants whatever change they want NOW or YESTERDAY, they are not willing to be patient. If they can't get what they want when they want it, then they will start another thread on the topic, in my view that is tiresome, non-productive and generally leads to arguments and repetitive comments. Are there mods which could be made to the Rules now, yes...some. But let's take, for example, what i have said expanding the linking to deal Native Names (not "correct" or "real", Native), Ken has said that he is revisiting the linking system, and any change made in that area NOW may wind up being incompatible with what he does , or at least make it messy. I don't know that is true, but I do know programming and how interlinked every aspect of a program is, so I repeat what i have said throughout this thread, be patient. There is nothing that we can do today. We can only wait and see what happens and then see where we go with it.

I have also said that the Rules are not perfect and NEVER will be, they will evolve over time, as issues are found and Invelos makes edits and as new versions of the Program are released and the Rules change to meet whatever new things are added. Crew roles will be uncovered that fit but aren't specifically covered by the Rules , since they are based on what our collective knowledge is at any given time, Hollywood is famous for coming up with new Crew role creations that in some cases are simply variations of what we have seen.

Skip
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
 Last edited: by Winston Smith
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTaro
Registered: February 23, 2009
Reputation: High Rating
Belgium Posts: 1,580
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Quoting Unicus69:
Quote:
Quoting Taro:
Quote:
I see a few posts above, you blame other users for not stepping in when things went wrong, not taking the bull by the horns. Well, now that some users ARE taking the bull by the horns and pointing out problems in the current version of the rules, they generally get the same response by a small but vocal group of users:
- who are you to talk with your puny collection?

I hope that isn't aimed at me because that is not what I said.  What I said was, before those of us who will be affected the least decide on a 'fix', we should consider those that will be affected the most.  Never did I question your right to talk.
sorry Unicus, it wasn't aimed at you, it was aimed at Skip, in reference to comments made in another thread.


Anyway, I still don't see what's wrong with bouncing ideas back and forward. Skip seems to automatically assume that it means we are impatient or we want anarchy. I can't speak for all users of course, but I can assure you that I, as well as others, merely want to point out existing problems and try to help formulate answers to those issues. Sure, not all the answers will be implementable or even be good ideas, but at least give us a chance to discuss the issues at hand give our own input. In another thread, the suggestions was made to make a seperate cast/crew database with the real names in it. I'm not saying this is necessarily the best solution but I would never have thought of that and thanks to discussions like these, such ideas can be thrown in the group.

I would find it a big loss for the users as well as Invelos themselves if the bouncing of ideas and suggestions would be smothered by immediately coming down hard on them with "No! That won't happen! The rules won't change!" attitude.

If such discussions aren't possible, then I don't see what's the point in having a forum such as this ...
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributordee1959jay
Registered: March 19, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
Netherlands Posts: 6,018
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I think the recent comments are fair and reasonable from both sides of the issue. IMHO there's nothing wrong with generating ideas for solutions as long as Ken is still contemplating what to change, and it's equally fair to warn against consequences for other users and against expectations with regard to a time frame.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantVittra
O.o
Registered: September 29, 2008
United States Posts: 384
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If Ken changed to a seperate Cast/Crew database as discussed in other threads, the need to worry about CLT would be mute because there wouldn't be a CLT. As it stands though, getting cast/crew from the actual disc/credits is a must because it effects the whole database, not just that particular locality.

So as it stands, strict rules, at least for cast/crew, I believe are necessary. On the other hand, I see no problem with the OPs suggestion in any other area.  As long as the "Desired" would still be as strict as it is today. Therefore we would always be working towards the "Desired", never backwards, and the amount of contributions would increase. Some people just don't care about all the anal details of a DVD that some of us do. And if that someone happens to have a DVD that no one else has, seeing that he only has to put very minimal effort into it to get it into the database isn't a bad thing. While I understand partial contributions are currently allowed, this would make it seem far more acceptable than it currently is.

If we were to change to a cast/crew database, then I see no problem with any of your suggestion and would back it 100%. I am part of the "Desired" crowd for sure, but if I have a disc with a blank cast/crew, I don't care where they get their info from, because some info in that profile until I get to doing a full audit, is better than no info. Even if there is a margin for error if it was obtained through an online source. Because eventually I will get to a full audit, and for those not doing full audits, they probably don't care that much about cast/crew other than the "key players" anyway, which have a very very low chance of being incorrect regardless of your source.

These type of rule changes would benefit the less popular genres and the smaller regions the most and wouldn't hurt the big regions (with lots of contributers) or big movies (hollywood) in the least bit, because more than likely those would already have hit the "desired" a long time ago.

As long as there is always an improvement on the database, I don't see what the problem is, which from my understanding of the OP, that would be a requirement. Any such contribution that would be going backwards would be voted down pretty quickly.
"The perfect is the enemy of the good." - Voltaire
 Last edited: by Vittra
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 21,610
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No, I don't even say what you imply I did, Taro. I said we aren't going backwards to the days of the guidelines, when Contributing was a free-for-all. I sday completely the opposite the Rules will change and evolve going forward, not backwards, and it won't happen on our timeline. Many time our discussions seem to go for naught and that is where we have to learn patience as it does no one any good.

For example. all right we know the Asian Name problem exists (Native name), does it do any good to bring up and dance around about it every few weeks. There is eve a sticky thread that was created expressly for that purpose, but still it gets a new thread opened every few weeks and has for 3 years. I submit that it does no good to bring it up every few weeks, it does heighten tension in the forums.

Taro, this i will direct at you since you started  a thread on it, did you bother to look around, it won't take very long to find that there are numerous threads on the topic plus the sticky thread. Every new user thinks his udea is unique and has NEVER been talked about before, Is there a CDProfiler?
There is very little new under the sun, most things that a new user brings  to the floor ahave been discussed, cussed, recussed and then cussed some more endlessly numerous times. Just as I commented about some users stating that i did not understand Asian Naming, which was an insulting remark to make and just plain flat true, and they chose tio make thart comment instead of trying to understand what was trying to be achieved and why, instead they were trying to skate around the Rules and be insulting about it; when in fact there had been an extensive discussion during the design process (not the writing) discussing exactly that issue, along with the linking problems and lack of a functioning linking system at that time, and in fact it was as a direct re4sult of those discussions that the term AS CREDITED came into being, and we recognized that some future linking system would be easy to implement as long as users followed AS CREDITED.

Skip
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
Alien with an attitude
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
United States Posts: 13,202
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Quoting Taro:
Quote:
sorry Unicus, it wasn't aimed at you, it was aimed at Skip, in reference to comments made in another thread.

No worries then.  I just wanted to be sure there weren't any misunderstandings here. 
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantVittra
O.o
Registered: September 29, 2008
United States Posts: 384
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Quoting Dr Pavlov:
Quote:
 

Taro, this i will direct at you since you started  a thread on it, did you bother to look around, it won't take very long to find that there are numerous threads on the topic plus the sticky thread. Every new user thinks his udea is unique and has NEVER been talked about before, Is there a CDProfiler?
There is very little new under the sun, most things that a new user brings  to the floor ahave been discussed, cussed, recussed and then cussed some more endlessly numerous times. Just as I commented about some users stating that i did not understand Asian Naming, which was an insulting remark to make and just plain flat true, and they chose tio make thart comment instead of trying to understand what was trying to be achieved and why, instead they were trying to skate around the Rules and be insulting about it; when in fact there had been an extensive discussion during the design process (not the writing) discussing exactly that issue, along with the linking problems and lack of a functioning linking system at that time, and in fact it was as a direct re4sult of those discussions that the term AS CREDITED came into being, and we recognized that some future linking system would be easy to implement as long as users followed AS CREDITED.

Skip


With all due respect, I think just about everything in these forums will seem like that to a 12 yr veteran, but that shouldn't mean that it should never pop up again. Maybe it bothers you because you *don't want* to see a CDprofiler for example? But for those who do, seeing it pop back up is a good thing. The more people voice their opinion, the more likely it is to come into fruitation.

I personally wouldn't use a CDprofiler, but I have no problem with people saying they want one. It doesn't hurt anyone. And there are no requirements for anyone to post in any given thread. If you don't want to read about redundant ideas, then just don't read them. But of course this isn't about CDprofiler, it's about rule changes, but is just as useful to talk about them IMO, especially for those who wish to see them changed. 
"The perfect is the enemy of the good." - Voltaire
 Last edited: by Vittra
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorsurfeur51
Since July 3, 2003
Registered: March 29, 2007
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Quoting Dr Pavlov:
Quote:
He is a fan of user-imagined data that has absolutely no basis in anything that is based on real data.


Yes, I am a fan of François instead of Francois, or ZHANG Ziyi instead of Zhang ZIYI. If it is what you call user-imaginated data with absolutely no basis, you should ask to 60 million French people for François and 1300 million Chinese people for Ziyi.
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 21,610
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But that is user imaginatiion, nothing that has a basisi in fact as it relates to a given film, that is what you continue to fail to understand. Every film stands on its own and provides its own set of data and as we now Hollywood is not consistent in that regard, that is why we have something called the CLT, surfeur. And IF users would learn to inoput the data as they see it for any given film. then the CLT would properly and we could have a linking system that works, you want to short cut and ignore the data and co with only what YOU believe to be correct, and because it your belief you are unable to see the REAL data. Stop using your interfpretive skills and just follow the data, that will ultimately be beneficial not only for you but for every other user. You interpretive skills beliong in only ONE place, LOCALLY and i will bever tell you not to use them there if you wish

Skip
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 21,610
Posted:
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Quoting Vittra:
Quote:
Quoting Dr Pavlov:
Quote:
 

Taro, this i will direct at you since you started  a thread on it, did you bother to look around, it won't take very long to find that there are numerous threads on the topic plus the sticky thread. Every new user thinks his udea is unique and has NEVER been talked about before, Is there a CDProfiler?
There is very little new under the sun, most things that a new user brings  to the floor ahave been discussed, cussed, recussed and then cussed some more endlessly numerous times. Just as I commented about some users stating that i did not understand Asian Naming, which was an insulting remark to make and just plain flat true, and they chose tio make thart comment instead of trying to understand what was trying to be achieved and why, instead they were trying to skate around the Rules and be insulting about it; when in fact there had been an extensive discussion during the design process (not the writing) discussing exactly that issue, along with the linking problems and lack of a functioning linking system at that time, and in fact it was as a direct re4sult of those discussions that the term AS CREDITED came into being, and we recognized that some future linking system would be easy to implement as long as users followed AS CREDITED.

Skip


With all due respect, I think just about everything in these forums will seem like that to a 12 yr veteran, but that shouldn't mean that it should never pop up again. Maybe it bothers you because you *don't want* to see a CDprofiler for example? But for those who do, seeing it pop back up is a good thing. The more people voice their opinion, the more likely it is to come into fruitation.

I personally wouldn't use a CDprofiler, but I have no problem with people saying they want one. It doesn't hurt anyone. And there are no requirements for anyone to post in any given thread. If you don't want to read about redundant ideas, then just don't read them. But of course this isn't about CDprofiler, it's about rule changes, but is just as useful to talk about them IMO, especially for those who wish to see them changed. 

Vittra:

It's not a question of not wanting to see it, it's a question of amusement, and having some fun sometimes at the users expense. Watch the billy video in my signature. Is it somewhat sarcastic...yes..,but more than anything it is poking someone in the ribs. I like to laugh...at you...at surfeur on those ocassions when he provides amusement..and most importantly at myself. Now all to unfortunatelty, i am not allowed to laugh enough.

Skip
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantVittra
O.o
Registered: September 29, 2008
United States Posts: 384
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Quoting Dr Pavlov:
Quote:
Quoting Vittra:
Quote:
Quoting Dr Pavlov:
Quote:
 

Taro, this i will direct at you since you started  a thread on it, did you bother to look around, it won't take very long to find that there are numerous threads on the topic plus the sticky thread. Every new user thinks his udea is unique and has NEVER been talked about before, Is there a CDProfiler?
There is very little new under the sun, most things that a new user brings  to the floor ahave been discussed, cussed, recussed and then cussed some more endlessly numerous times. Just as I commented about some users stating that i did not understand Asian Naming, which was an insulting remark to make and just plain flat true, and they chose tio make thart comment instead of trying to understand what was trying to be achieved and why, instead they were trying to skate around the Rules and be insulting about it; when in fact there had been an extensive discussion during the design process (not the writing) discussing exactly that issue, along with the linking problems and lack of a functioning linking system at that time, and in fact it was as a direct re4sult of those discussions that the term AS CREDITED came into being, and we recognized that some future linking system would be easy to implement as long as users followed AS CREDITED.

Skip


With all due respect, I think just about everything in these forums will seem like that to a 12 yr veteran, but that shouldn't mean that it should never pop up again. Maybe it bothers you because you *don't want* to see a CDprofiler for example? But for those who do, seeing it pop back up is a good thing. The more people voice their opinion, the more likely it is to come into fruitation.

I personally wouldn't use a CDprofiler, but I have no problem with people saying they want one. It doesn't hurt anyone. And there are no requirements for anyone to post in any given thread. If you don't want to read about redundant ideas, then just don't read them. But of course this isn't about CDprofiler, it's about rule changes, but is just as useful to talk about them IMO, especially for those who wish to see them changed. 

Vittra:

It's not a question of not wanting to see it, it's a question of amusement, and having some fun sometimes at the users expense. Watch the billy video in my signature. Is it somewhat sarcastic...yes..,but more than anything it is poking someone in the ribs. I like to laugh...at you...at surfeur on those ocassions when he provides amusement..and most importantly at myself. Now all to unfortunatelty, i am not allowed to laugh enough.

Skip


I'm not sure I quite understand... So you often times tell people their opinions are wrong or try to tell people their opinions are redundant and shouldn't need to be said for none other than your own amusement? 

I'm not sure others really appreciate their opinions being belittled constantly for nothing but a matter of personal enjoyment on the other user's part. If I'm off in my reading of that post, please enlighten me...it just doesn't sound right to me. In particular the "and having some fun sometimes at the users expense" part. 
"The perfect is the enemy of the good." - Voltaire
 Last edited: by Vittra
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 21,610
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You brought up CDProfiler...not me.

The repetitive threads are another matter entirely, for example the Asian Name thread comes up every few weeks and the part of that that is utterly insane is that there is thread that has been stickied for that express purpose, but people will start another thread on the topic anyway.<shrugs> This makes sense...how? How often do new users ask about the green highlighting? Even as poor as our Search is and we all know that, if you search on Green you will get the answer, many times over, lol.

Skip
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
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