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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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RFC: Filter for Jr. |
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| Author |
Message |
| Registered: March 14, 2007 |  Posts: 2,366 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting skipnet50: Quote:
Quoting Daddy DVD:
Quote:
If that is true then why are users still debating over this issue?
Because, Martin, just like the people in california who are complaining about proposition 8 being passed by the VOTERS, some people just want to have things their way and are unwilling to accept a different answer.
Skip I don't think you can compare a civil right with a parsing problem, but let's not get back to that issue now shall we. | | | Martin Zuidervliet
DVD Profiler Nederlands |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting skipnet50: Quote:
Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
Quoting T!M:
Quote:
Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
So, Tim, why is it that you have not responded to the above?
Because there really is no point. Actually, I did respond to it, but never mind: I've given up. We'll do this again next month, okay? This is all so perfectly simple: enter what you see and nothing else. Things only go wrong when people start applying what they feel they know is "correct". It's all downhill from there, as we've seen time and time again. That's why I restrict myself to what I see on the screen - common names excluded, of course.
But we don't "enter what we see" for names. That's the whole point!
Good grief. 
Skip In fact, if we really want to get anal, if the on screen credit is "DANNY DeVITO" we should technically enter it into DVDP as "DANNY DeVITO". The exception listed in the Rules is only for when the name is in ALL CAPS. "DANNY DeVITO" is not in ALL CAPS, so it should be entered strictly by the Rules: exactly as it appears on screen. As much as you would like to ignore what the Rules say Skip, so that you can apply your personal preferences, according to the Rules these names should be entered as follows (no "Credited As" name required): DANNY DEVITO = Danny Devito DANNY DeVITO = DANNY DeVITO Danny DeVito = Danny DeVito Danny Devito = Danny Devito danny devito - danny devito And the really great thing is, DVDP doesn't care one way or the other. It will still link all of these profiles together, which is really what matters. | | | | Hal | | | | Last edited: by hal9g |
|   | Berak | | Bibamus morieundum est! |
| Registered: May 10, 2007 |  Posts: 1,059 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote:
DANNY DEVITO = Danny Devito
DANNY DeVITO = DANNY DeVITO
Danny DeVito = Danny DeVito
Danny Devito = Danny Devito
danny devito - danny devito
And the really great thing is, DVDP doesn't care one way or the other. It will still link all of these profiles together, which is really what matters. Isn't what you're saying here wrong Hal?  If you have an entry for Danny DeVito in your database, DVDProfiler won't let you create a name of Danny Devito, will it?  I might have misunderstood your meaning, but if this is indeed what you meant, you are mistaken... | | | Berak
It's better to burn out than to fade away!
True love conquers all! | | | | Last edited: by Berak |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Locally, you cannot maintain any more than one of these variants.
However, for contributing, you can modify the name before submitting. It is the contribution of the name that has to follow the Rules exactly. | | | | Hal |
| | Registered: August 22, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,807 |
| |  | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting EnryWiki: Quote:
 I'll see your , and I'll raise it with a few more: I can't imagine that anyone would think that changing the entry in your database before submitting, and then changing it back afterwards is the ideal method to handle this. Especially when you take into account the trouble this causes other users dealing with such profiles. If you DO recognize a difference between different incarnations of a credit, why not store both versions in the profile? That is a big part of what the "credited as" system is about. Again: if you DO concede that contributions should match the on-screen credit, and you would take the trouble to actually change the credit for contribution purposes, why then wouldn't you store both pieces of information in the database? At that point, you've done all the work, and instead of sharing it with other users downloading your profiles, you throw it at all away - leaving others to do the work themselves, and even going so far as to go back and strip the actual on-screen credit from your own database by changing it back to what you feel is the "common name". The thing is: we HAVE a "common name" in the program: there's no need to keep it local. You can simply contribute it, with the "credited as" value attached. I honestly fail to see the problem, but I REALLY have a hard time believing that it's Ken's intention that we all change our entries before contributing, and then change them right back afterwards. I'm sorry, but I just don't buy it... |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Tim: I think we have some users who simply want to make nuch ado about nothing and have not really sat down and given this much thought. I will say again what i have said numerous times, the IMPORTANT piece of data is the Credited As, the Alias system serves a function, but serves nothing if it winds up messing up the Credited As data. While the Online does recognize the case issue, the local database does not, this an issue that Ken does need to fix so that the local will deal properly with upper and lower case entries. For the moment it means little in theses circumstances. Tim may have Devito in his collecton and i may have DeVito, if the credit is Devito, Tim does nothing and I enter Devito in my Credited As, if the Online contains the correct Devito credit then I do NOTHING relative to Contributing, it is not needed. If the Online does not reflect the correct credit, then a Danny DeVito (Danny Devito) does nothing but tell us that someone has DeVito in his listing. Thus the CORRECT credit will captured by the CLT and will be properly reflected. But at this point, the CLT is virtually useless for these other than a trivia point. Let us use the above example Tim has Devito and I have DeVito (let's call the whole thing off), couldn't help it.  Tim adding a DeVito changes nothing in my database on download, my Devito will not suddenly become DeVito, nor will my Devito have any impavct on his DeVito, thus the only thing we can do with these is make sure that we capture the Credited As data. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting skipnet50: Quote:
I think we have some users who simply want to make nuch ado about nothing and have not really sat down and given this much thought. Indeed. Additionally, people are thrown off by the Danny DeVito example, because everyone simply KNOWS how his name is supposed to be written. Things get a lot more clear when you've dealt with a thousand unknowns like you and I have. Quoting skipnet50: Quote:
the only thing we can do with these is make sure that we capture the Credited As data. The problem is that not all users agree on what the "credited as" data for, say, DANNY DEVITO is. Certain people can't help seeing things that aren't there... Again, I would enter that as "Danny DeVito [Danny Devito]", storing both the common name and the actual on-screen credit in the profile, without applying any outside knowledge or outside documentation to what I see, and then I share both pieces of data with the rest of the community. No silly changing of entries back and forth during the contribution process over here, obviously. It's not at all different to "Robert Downey, Jr. [Robert Downey Jr.]" (now even enforced by the system) or "François Truffaut [Francois Truffaut]". | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
Quoting skipnet50:
Quote:
the only thing we can do with these is make sure that we capture the Credited As data.
The problem is that not all users agree on what the "credited as" data for, say, DANNY DEVITO is. Certain people can't help seeing things that aren't there... Again, I would enter that as "Danny DeVito [Danny Devito]", storing both the common name and the actual on-screen credit in the profile, without applying any outside knowledge or outside documentation to what I see, and then I share both pieces of data with the rest of the community. No changing entries back and forth over here, obviously. It's not at all different to "Robert Downey, Jr. [Robert Downey Jr.]" (now even enforced by the system) or "François Truffaut [Francois Truffaut]". It is completely different than your Robert Downey Jr. example. It is completely disingenuous of you to say that they are the same. One is ONLY a capitalization issue of the SAME letters. The others involves additional or different characters. The only reason you don't see the difference is because it would undermine your argument!  | | | | Hal | | | | Last edited: by hal9g |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 2,759 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
The problem is that not all users agree on what the "credited as" data for, say, DANNY DEVITO is. Certain people can't help seeing things that aren't there... Again, I would enter that as "Danny DeVito [Danny Devito]", (...) I would enter that as "Danny DeVito" (no credited as) according the standard capitalisation rule of his name. |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting RHo: Quote:
Quoting T!M:
Quote:
The problem is that not all users agree on what the "credited as" data for, say, DANNY DEVITO is. Certain people can't help seeing things that aren't there... Again, I would enter that as "Danny DeVito [Danny Devito]", (...)
I would enter that as "Danny DeVito" (no credited as) according the standard capitalisation rule of his name. And so we're back at square one: that is indeed the problem, as EnryWiki showed earlier. Three groups of DVD Profiler users handle such a credit in three different ways. Part of the community enters "Danny Devito", another part enters "Danny DeVito", and yet another part enters "Danny DeVito [Danny Devito]". This thread, and countless ones before it, clearly shows once again that we're not able to figure this out among ourselves, and so we'll each keep doing it as we deem correct...  |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote:
It is completely different than your Robert Downey Jr. example. It is completely disingenuous of you to say that they are the same. One is ONLY a capitalization issue of the SAME letters. The others involves additional or different characters.
The only reason you don't see the difference is because it would undermine your argument! Quite the opposite: it is EXACTLY the same thing. The lack or presence of an accent, the lack or presence of a comma, or the lack or presence of capitalization are all extremely similar situations. They're all (very) minor credit variations for which we have a system in place that can deal with each of them perfectly, in exactly the same way. There is no logical reason to treat one of these differently than the other ones. The only reason you choose not to see the similarity is because it would undermine your argument! |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
It is completely different than your Robert Downey Jr. example. It is completely disingenuous of you to say that they are the same. One is ONLY a capitalization issue of the SAME letters. The others involves additional or different characters.
The only reason you don't see the difference is because it would undermine your argument!
Quite the opposite: it is EXACTLY the same thing. The lack or presence of an accent, the lack or presence of a comma, or the lack or presence of capitalization are all extremely similar situations. They're all (very) minor credit variations for which we have a system in place that can deal with each of them perfectly, in exactly the same way. There is no logical reason to treat one of these differently than the other ones.
The only reason you choose not to see the similarity is because it would undermine your argument! If they are EXACTLY the same, how come DVDP has no problem linking 'Danny Devito' and 'Danny DeVito' but CANNOT link 'Robert Downey Jr' and 'Robert Downey, Jr.(without using "Credited As")? You are in some kind of SERIOUS denial! | | | | Hal | | | | Last edited: by hal9g |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote:
If they are EXACTLY the same, how come DVDP has no problem linking 'Danny Devito' and 'Danny DeVito' but CANNOT link 'Robert Downey Jr' and 'Robert Downey, Jr.' As I've tried to explain to you about a dozen times before: linking has nothing to do with it. It's fortunate that this capitalization issue doesn't lead to separate, non-linking actor entries - although some people here keep asking for a "fix" of that "bug" - I suppose if such an (unwanted!) "fix" would happen you'd suddenly see the similarity? But, for the umpteenth time: it's not about that. It's about the rule that tells us to enter the credit exactly as seen on-screen. Well, I don't see anything in "DANNY DEVITO" (but more importantly: in similar credits for complete unknowns) that prompts me to invent a capital "V" out of thin air. Like you, I happen to know that it's supposed to be there, just like I know that the accent in François Truffaut's name is supposed to be there. That's why I do use both in their common names. BUT IT'S NOT THERE ON THE SCREEN! Imagine for a second that you're, say, Chinese, you don't know these Hollywood stars, and all those silly Western letters don't mean anything to you. Now how on earth would you arrive at entering "DEVITO" as "DeVito"?! You wouldn't: there's nothing on the screen that suggests that in any way, and I really feel that no outside knowledge, documentation or whatever should be needed to simply transcribe a set of credits from the screen. That shows you the universal outlook on this issue that you need: a basic, simple approach that can truly be applied by ANY DVD Profiler user around the world. And I thought we had something like that: simply enter what you see. | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
And so we're back at square one: that is indeed the problem, as EnryWiki showed earlier. Three groups of DVD Profiler users handle such a credit in three different ways. Part of the community enters "Danny Devito", another part enters "Danny DeVito", and yet another part enters "Danny DeVito [Danny Devito]". This thread, and countless ones before it, clearly shows once again that we're not able to figure this out among ourselves, and so we'll each keep doing it as we deem correct... The problem is that people, like you, continue to ignore the part of the rule that says, "Exception: If the credit information is entirely capitalized, use standard capitalization rules instead." Rather than follow that rule, you have decided to do it based on your own personal preferences. You claim that you are copying the credits exactly, but you aren't. If you were, the vast majority of your credits would be in ALL CAPS. But they aren't, are they? You say that you see nothing in 'DANNY DEVITO' that would prompt you to 'invent a capital 'V'. The problem with that statement is that you are seeing a capital 'V' and inventing a lowercase 'v'. In fact, you are inventing a lowercase 'a', 'n', 'n', 'y', 'e', 'v', 'i', 't', and 'o' "out of thin air" as none of those letters are seen on-screen. The fact of the matter is that you are entering the name in mixed case because of the exception in the rule, the one I posted above, for credits that are in all caps. The problem, and for some reason you can't seem to see it, is that you aren't following standard capitalization rules...at least none that I can find. While it has been requested, several times, you have yet to provide the set of rules that you are following. Instead you keep repeating, the false statement, that you are copying the credits exactly as seen on-screen. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Unicus69: Quote:
Instead you keep repeating, the false statement, that you are copying the credits exactly as seen on-screen. I'll say to you what I said to Hal: Imagine for a second that you're, say, Chinese, you don't know these Hollywood stars, and all those silly Western letters don't mean anything to you. Now how on earth would you arrive at entering "DEVITO" as "DeVito"?! You wouldn't, not in a million years: there's absolutely nothing on the screen that suggests that in any way, and I really feel that no outside knowledge, documentation or whatever should be needed to simply copy a set of credits from the screen into DVD Profiler. Well, it's that outlook on "standard capitalization rules" I apply to cast and crew credits (and role names, too) that are shown in ALL-CAPS on-screen. I start every part of the name with a capital, and unless some form of highlighting indicates otherwise, I convert all subsequent letters of each part to lowercase. I don't assume anything, I don't apply what I think I know, nor do I apply any other form of outside documentation. And what do you know? It works! It's the only approach that works accross the board: whether I'm profiling a major Hollywood blockbuster or some hardly-known Italian cult-film... | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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