Quoting m.cellophane:

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Were the actors listed as first/middle/last or were the listed with their names shown as they're customarily written? Aren't you assuming that they're shown first/middle/last? There's no "last name" field in a frame of film, but there is in DVD Profiler.

This is a game of symantics and I really don't want to play.  Based on my entire post, it should have been quite clear what I meant. 

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We should put the data in the field to which it belongs, as this is a database. Entering data based on its positional appearance and declaring a surname to be "not a last name if it's listed first" seems odd to me. It seems right to me to enter known surnames as last names and to use Credited As to mimic the appearance of the credits.

If a surname is listed first, it's not entered as a surname? That's what doesn't seem right to me. 

I agree with you, we should put the data in the field to which it belongs.  What I disagree with is your assertion that an asian surname should go into the last name field.  Why?  Because, as I said earlier, you are applying a western standard to the field.  In China, as an example, first name does not equal given name and last name does not equal surname.  In fact, quite the opposite is true.

On top of that, the standard display in Profiler is 'first/middle/last'.  If we did it your way, the name would display as 'Yun-Fat Chow' which is an incorrect representation of the credits.  Sure, we could solve that by using 'credited as', but that would be an improper use of the 'credited as' system because the name isn't different...it was just entered differently.

Quoting Unicus69:

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Quoting m.cellophane:

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Were the actors listed as first/middle/last or were the listed with their names shown as they're customarily written? Aren't you assuming that they're shown first/middle/last? There's no "last name" field in a frame of film, but there is in DVD Profiler.

This is a game of symantics and I really don't want to play.  Based on my entire post, it should have been quite clear what I meant. 

I understood what you meant, but disagreed with the assumption that because a name comes first, it must be entered as a first name. "Last Name" is surname in America. Not last word. The family name in China comes first, but that doesn't make it the first name by American standards. It's still the surname. The surname is equivalent to the American last name.

Of course this is about semantics, but it's not a game for me anyway. As you say, words have meaning; right?  We shouldn't ignore that the first word(s) of a Chinese name are a surname which is equivalent to the American last name...which is the 3rd name field in DVD Profiler.

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I agree with you, we should put the data in the field to which it belongs.  What I disagree with is your assertion that an asian surname should go into the last name field.  Why?  Because, as I said earlier, you are applying a western standard to the field.  In China, as an example, first name does not equal given name and last name does not equal surname.  In fact, quite the opposite is true.

I'm not applying a western standard to the field. I'm advocating putting Chinese family names and western surnames in the same field and then using Credited As to display the name in the order it is written. That honors the way the name is written and stores the data properly for what it is.

Isn't it valuable information, to some extent, to have Chinese family names recorded as surnames in the last name field in DVD Profiler? Until these battles came out here, I had no idea that Chow Yun-Fat's surname was Chow (although I was aware of Chinese surnames). Now I do. If we enter Chinese family names as "first names" we misrepresent what it is.

Quoting m.cellophane:

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I'm not applying a western standard to the field. I'm advocating putting Chinese family names and western surnames in the same field and then using Credited As to display the name in the order it is written.

That was the biggest reason for me supporting the idea of last name = family name when inputting cast and crew. It's not so much about cultural preferences, it's about consistent data: all the family names are in the same field. And the way the cast database is presented (sorted by last name) in the program supports that interpretation.
However, the biggest problem with that form of data entry is that "credited as" would have to be used for almost every single Asian credit, and the CLT results would be useless.
To be honest I think the best way to handle this would be some form of program change: single name field would be good, a checkbox indicating Asian name order would work too, I'm sure there are other solutions...

PS the support ticket I opened in November about this very problem is still "In Queue", I get the feeling that maybe Ken is avoiding the issue... 

Then explain why the cast and crew databases are sorted by last name in the actual program.

The closest you can come to in sorting is the CLT, which is dependent on users inputting data correctly. If they do not follow the Rules then they skew the CLT results. This has been well-documented.

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Quoting m.cellophane:

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I'm not applying a western standard to the field.

For me, saying that 'last name' = 'surname' is a applying a western standard.  An eastern standard would be the exact opposite.  That being said, I feel we are focusing on the minutia, so I will let it go. 

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I'm advocating putting Chinese family names and western surnames in the same field and then using Credited As to display the name in the order it is written. That honors the way the name is written and stores the data properly for what it is.

This is a position I supported a while back.  I changed my mind because that is NOT what the 'credited as' field is for.  The 'credited as' field is for name variants.  This is not a name variant.

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Isn't it valuable information, to some extent, to have Chinese family names recorded as surnames in the last name field in DVD Profiler?

That is a question for you and the other people that want to enter it that way.  Clearly, I don't think it is...at least not valuable enough to further complicate things.

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Until these battles came out here, I had no idea that Chow Yun-Fat's surname was Chow (although I was aware of Chinese surnames). Now I do. If we enter Chinese family names as "first names" we misrepresent what it is.

And that is the fatal flaw with this line of thinking...it depends on knowledge some people may not have.  If you, as a fairly knowledgeable user, didn't know that 'Chow' was the surname of a fairly well known actor, how can we expect the 'regular' users to know?  Especially when we have some asian actors adopting a western format.

I understand what you want to do and why, honestly I do.  As I said, at one time, I even supported it.  The main problem, that nobody has addressed, is how are you going to implement this standard?  We couldn't write a rule for name parsing, how are we going to write a rule for asian names?

Quoting Unicus69:

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And that is the fatal flaw with this line of thinking...it depends on knowledge some people may not have.  If you, as a fairly knowledgeable user, didn't know that 'Chow' was the surname of a fairly well known actor, how can we expect the 'regular' users to know?  Especially when we have some asian actors adopting a western format.

I understand what you want to do and why, honestly I do.  As I said, at one time, I even supported it.  The main problem, that nobody has addressed, is how are you going to implement this standard?  We couldn't write a rule for name parsing, how are we going to write a rule for asian names?

As much as I could remember while typing, I used the phrase "known surname" to note that I'm only referring to cases where we know and can prove it. Believe me, I've done some cast lists with Asian names and I couldn't tell you which were the surnames. If I didn't know, I would follow the 1st word/2nd word/3rd word plan.

First of all, why did you have to pick such a funny name to put in so many different ways? XD


Ehm, I can't pick between 2 because I don't know if they are meant 'first/middle/last' or the other way around.
But I know him as 'Chow Yun-Fat', with 'Chow' being the first name and 'Yun-Fat' the last.