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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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Credits "Based on..." |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote:
And the Notes mean nothing when it comes to determining if the actual credit matches the one that is in the crew table under the allowable columns. An OCB credit is NOT allowed under the current Rules. The notes tell us when to give someone an OCB credit. This situation fits the note perfectly, so I can understand why you want to ignore it. Quote:
You're the one that made the statement that these movies are not continuations of the TV series, not me. It is simply inconceivable to me that anyone who makes such a statement either could have watched the movies and series OR they are simply being disingenuous in an attempt to argue their point. Since you claim that you have watched them , then that only leaves me to believe the latter. Sorry, but the fact that it is inconceivable to you means nothing beyond the fact that you seem to believe that something you can't conceive is not possible. Sorry, but that simply isn't the case. I don't agree with your opinion, such is life. As I said in my previous post, and you decided to ignore, the credit clearly states that the films are 'based on' Star Trek. I see nothing about a 'continuation of the series.' Quote:
Quote:
And OBTW, Since when does a credit of "Based a Novel by" get an OCB credit? 
Obviously, this statement is totally incorrect:
Quoting Unicus69:
Quote:
...we have here is a credit that reads "Based on". In every other case, that credit gets an OCB entry in Profiler You are correct, that statement was incorrect...I should have included OMB. So, to correct my statement...what we have here is a credit that reads "Based on". In every other case, that credit gets an OCB or OMB entry in Profiler. This credit should be no different. Happy now? | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: June 12, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 2,665 |
| | Posted: | | | | We had Original Characters By.
Now we have Original Characters By & Created By.
Some of the credits that used to be ascribed to OCB are now Created By.
I would just like to know where the line is drawn between the two. The Rules for OCB haven't changed (i don't believe) with the addition of Created By, and Created By has no explanation of what is legal. I'm not getting much of that information from this discussion so far.
And let me note that if it ends up that some on screen credits with the words Created By end up on both sides of that line the Rules need to be explicit on how to select the right Profiler credit. Otherwise this will just keep coming up and will become almost as much fun as discussing how to parse Chinese names. | | | | Bad movie? You're soaking in it! |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Unicus69: Quote:
Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
And the Notes mean nothing when it comes to determining if the actual credit matches the one that is in the crew table under the allowable columns. An OCB credit is NOT allowed under the current Rules.
Highlighting by me.
The notes tell us when to give someone an OCB credit. This situation fits the note perfectly, so I can understand why you want to ignore it. I want to ignore it because the Rules tell us to ignore it: Quoting the Rules: Quote:
For each category, include only those people credited with the roles listed in the "Role" and "Credited As" columns. If someone is not credited with one of these roles (or direct translations of these roles), do not include them in the Crew section. There is no "Role" or "Credited As" listed in either column that says "Based on...". Therefore it is not permissible. But I can see why you want to ignore the clear intent of the Rules? Quoting Unicus69: Quote:
Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
You're the one that made the statement that these movies are not continuations of the TV series, not me. It is simply inconceivable to me that anyone who makes such a statement either could have watched the movies and series OR they are simply being disingenuous in an attempt to argue their point. Since you claim that you have watched them , then that only leaves me to believe the latter.
Sorry, but the fact that it is inconceivable to you means nothing beyond the fact that you seem to believe that something you can't conceive is not possible. Sorry, but that simply isn't the case. I don't agree with your opinion, such is life. As I said in my previous post, and you decided to ignore, the credit clearly states that the films are 'based on' Star Trek. I see nothing about a 'continuation of the series.' Actually the legal standard would be what any reasonable person would believe. I don't think there's much doubt about that. It's too bad you can't admit it when you toss out a bunch of hyperbole to try to make a point. And you continue to ignore the fact that the Title of the Movie is 'Star Trek:.....'. The on screen credit says "Based on Star Trek Created by Gene Roddenberry". Based on your interpretation the credit should be: Original Characters by 'Star Trek' OR Original Characters by 'Star Trek Created by Gene Roddenberry' I cannot ignore "Based on", but it's perfectly OK for you to ignore "Star Trek" in the credit!  If they wanted to credit Roddenberry just for the characters, the credit would have read, "Based on Characters by Gene Roddenberry" or some such. But that's not what it says! Quoting Unicus69: Quote:
Quote:
Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
And OBTW, Since when does a credit of "Based a Novel by" get an OCB credit?
Obviously, this statement is totally incorrect:
Quoting Unicus69:
Quote:
...we have here is a credit that reads "Based on". In every other case, that credit gets an OCB entry in Profiler
You are correct, that statement was incorrect...I should have included OMB. So, to correct my statement...what we have here is a credit that reads "Based on". In every other case, that credit gets an OCB or OMB entry in Profiler. This credit should be no different.
Happy now? Once again, neither the OMB nor the OCB credits in the Crew table in the Rules list "Based on" in either the "Role" column or the "Credited As" column. Therefore, any credit that starts with those words must be kept local according to the current Rules. Does that make me happy? Absolutely not. But, it is what the Rules say! But you just go right on ignoring that fact! | | | | Hal | | | | Last edited: by hal9g |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote:
I want to ignore it because the Rules tell us to ignore it:
Quoting the Rules:
Quote:
For each category, include only those people credited with the roles listed in the "Role" and "Credited As" columns. If someone is not credited with one of these roles (or direct translations of these roles), do not include them in the Crew section.
There is no "Role" or "Credited As" listed in either column that says "Based on...". Therefore it is not permissible.
But I can see why you want to ignore the clear intent of the Rules? I think you have that backwards. I am following the clear intent of the rules, you are the one who is ignoring it. The notes tell me what the intent was so, because I didn't remove my brain, I know what credits should be entered for OMB and OCB. Quoting hal9g: Quote:
Actually the legal standard would be what any reasonable person would believe. I don't think there's much doubt about that. It's too bad you can't admit it when you toss out a bunch of hyperbole to try to make a point. Last time I checked, we weren't in a court of law. Last time I checked, you weren't the arbiter of what was and wasn't reasonable. In my opinion, with a few exceptions, films based on TV shows are not continuations. 'Bewitched', 'The Dukes of Hazzard', 'Mission Impossible', 'Get Smart', and yes even Star Trek, were not continuations of the original series. They were new beginnings. You don't have to agree, but to believe that other opinions aren't possible is just arrogant. Quote:
And you continue to ignore the fact that the Title of the Movie is 'Star Trek:.....'. I haven't ignored it, I just see it in a different light. The original movie was 'Star Trek: The Motion Picture'. They could just have easily name it 'Star Trek', but they didn't. That may mean nothing to you, but it means something to me. That title, in my opinion, was designed to separate it from the TV Series. Again, you don't have to agree, but your disagreement doesn't invalidate my opinion. Quote:
The on screen credit says "Based on Star Trek Created by Gene Roddenberry". Based on your interpretation the credit should be:
Original Characters by 'Star Trek' OR
Original Characters by 'Star Trek Created by Gene Roddenberry' No, based on my interpretation, the credit should be: Original Characters by Gene Roddenberry. I already made that statement...I guess you missed it. Quote:
I cannot ignore "Based on", but it's perfectly OK for you to ignore "Star Trek" in the credit! I already explained this as well. The credit gives us two pieces of information: what the film is based on, Star Trek, and who created it. Per the rules, we give that person an OCB credit. Quote:
If they wanted to credit Roddenberry just for the characters, the credit would have read, "Based on Characters by Gene Roddenberry" or some such. But that's not what it says! Two can play that game. If they had wanted to give Roddenberry a created by credit, the credit would have read, "Created by Gene Roddenberry" or some such. But that's not what it says! It says that the film is based on something he created. Quoting hal9g: Quote:
Once again, neither the OMB nor the OCB credits in the Crew table in the Rules list "Based on" in either the "Role" column or the "Credited As" column. Therefore, any credit that starts with those words must be kept local according to the current Rules.
Does that make me happy? Absolutely not. But, it is what the Rules say!
But you just go right on ignoring that fact! I already addressed this so I won't bother wasting my time again. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Unicus69: Quote:
Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
Once again, neither the OMB nor the OCB credits in the Crew table in the Rules list "Based on" in either the "Role" column or the "Credited As" column. Therefore, any credit that starts with those words must be kept local according to the current Rules.
Does that make me happy? Absolutely not. But, it is what the Rules say!
But you just go right on ignoring that fact!
I already addressed this so I won't bother wasting my time again. Yes, you addressed it by saying that you are going to ignore what the actual Rules say in favor of a note in the crew table which the Rules specifically say is not to be used to determine what credits are allowable. That change to the Rules was specifically added for the v3.5 release of the program, which tells me that Ken intentionally wants to restrict the credits only to what is listed in the two columns that he identified. But clearly, you know better! | | | | Hal |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote:
Yes, you addressed it by saying that you are going to ignore what the actual Rules say in favor of a note in the crew table which the Rules specifically say is not to be used to determine what credits are allowable. They say nothing of the kind. In fact, the notes column is not mentioned at all. Can it be read that way? Sure it can but, as other people have illustrated in their posts, it can be read another way...though I am sure that simply inconceivable to you.  Quote:
That change to the Rules was specifically added for the v3.5 release of the program, which tells me that Ken intentionally wants to restrict the credits only to what is listed in the two columns that he identified.
But clearly, you know better! Actually, I do know better...at least better than you. That verbiage was added to eliminate the 'there is no credits to include column' argument. How do I know this? Because I am the one who asked him to change this: "For each category, include only those people credited with the roles listed in the "Film Credits to Include" column." to this: "For each category, include only those people credited with the roles listed in the "Role" and "Credited As" columns." Unfortunately, my crystal ball was on the fritz and I didn't anticipate this level of hardheadedness. If I had, I would have suggested something different. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Unicus69: Quote:
Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
Yes, you addressed it by saying that you are going to ignore what the actual Rules say in favor of a note in the crew table which the Rules specifically say is not to be used to determine what credits are allowable.
They say nothing of the kind. In fact, the notes column is not mentioned at all. Can it be read that way? Sure it can but, as other people have illustrated in their posts, it can be read another way...though I am sure that simply inconceivable to you. Please give me the alternative interpretation of this part of the Rule: Quoting the Rules: Quote:
The table below gives each of the crew roles available within DVD Profiler. For each category, include only those people credited with the roles listed in the "Role" and "Credited As" columns. If someone is not credited with one of these roles (or direct translations of these roles), do not include them in the Crew section. You are quite correct that I find it inconceivable that you could interpret that any other way other than that the only allowable credits are those listed in the columns labeled "Role" and "Credited As". Ken further gives a directive not to include them if they are not listed as a role under one of those columns. Any other interpretation is purely wishful thinking. Quoting Unicus69: Quote:
Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
That change to the Rules was specifically added for the v3.5 release of the program, which tells me that Ken intentionally wants to restrict the credits only to what is listed in the two columns that he identified.
But clearly, you know better!
Actually, I do know better...at least better than you. That verbiage was added to eliminate the 'there is no credits to include column' argument. How do I know this? Because I am the one who asked him to change this: "For each category, include only those people credited with the roles listed in the "Film Credits to Include" column." to this: "For each category, include only those people credited with the roles listed in the "Role" and "Credited As" columns."
Unfortunately, my crystal ball was on the fritz and I didn't anticipate this level of hardheadedness. If I had, I would have suggested something different. The "bolded by me section" sounds vaguely familiar to statements that you have soundly condemned in the past from another user on this forum. My how things have changed. Your intent is irrelevant (I believe you've told Skip this on numerous occasions). What you believe is the reason that Ken worded it the way he did is also irrelevant. The only thing that is relevant is what Ken actually put into the Rules which states unequivocally that only roles listed in the "Role" column and the "Credited As" column are allowed. There is no exception for any verbiage in the "Notes" column, whatsoever. Consequently, "Based on" anything is not an OCB credit for the purposes of DVDP, regardless of how you would like to twist things around. | | | | Hal | | | | Last edited: by hal9g |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | I find it funny that you had no problem entering crew data under the old rule yet you are a stickler under the new one. I mean, before the change we were only allowed to enter crew that were listed in the 'credits to include column'. Since there wasn't one, none of the profiles should have had any crew. Is that how you interpreted the rules back then? I don't believe it was. In fact, I am quite sure it wasn't.
That being said, you go ahead and interpret the rules any way you want. Those of us who haven't checked our brains at the door, will continue to enter the proper credits in to the proper fields. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Too many interpreters not enough listeners.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Unicus69: Quote:
I find it funny that you had no problem entering crew data under the old rule yet you are a stickler under the new one. I mean, before the change we were only allowed to enter crew that were listed in the 'credits to include column'. Since there wasn't one, none of the profiles should have had any crew. Is that how you interpreted the rules back then? I don't believe it was. In fact, I am quite sure it wasn't. What happened before is also irrelevant! Quoting Unicus69: Quote:
That being said, you go ahead and interpret the rules any way you want. Those of us who haven't checked our brains at the door, will continue to enter the proper credits in to the proper fields. In other words, the heck with what the Rules say this time. I'll do as I darn well please. Unlike you, I am not interpreting anything. This Rule is in clear, direct, unambiguous English. You simply do not like what it says. The parser extraordinaire is no more!  | | | | Hal | | | | Last edited: by hal9g |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote:
What happened before is also irrelevant! Of course it is because it illustrates your inconsistent attitude. It was o.k. to enter credits, based on common sense, under the old rules but, for some strange reason, it isn't o.k. under the new rules. I can see why you want that to be irrelevant. Quoting hal9g: Quote:
In other words, the heck with what the Rules say this time. I'll do as I darn well please.
Unlike you, I am not interpreting anything. This Rule is in clear, direct, unambiguous English. You simply do not like what it says. The old crew rules were in clear, direct, unambiguous English as well. Those rules told us we could not enter a single crew credit. As I said, you didn't have a problem ignoring the letter of the rule then, so why do you have a problem now? Quote:
The parser extraordinaire is no more!  | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,480 |
| | Posted: | | | | I'm confused by the back and forth. Can we address some specific examples please.
For "Jack in the Beanstalk" (1952), there is a credit that reads "From a Story by". Am I allowed to include that as "Story by" or not, since "Story by" != "From a Story by"?
For "Becket", there is a credit that says "Based Upon the Play 'Becket'". Is that OMB or does it have to be OCB since it's "based on another work"?
Same question for "Missing" which has a credit reading "Based on the Book 'Missing'".
"Casino Royale" (2006) has a credit which reads "Based on the Novel". I didn't record in DVDP whether the name of the novel is noted in the credit or not.
"Thunderball" has credits reading "Based on an Original Screenplay" (OMB?) and "Based on the Original Story" ("Story by" or not, since "Based on the Original Story != "Story by"). | | | ...James
"People fake a lot of human interactions, but I feel like I fake them all, and I fake them very well. That’s my burden, I guess." ~ Dexter Morgan |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 4,675 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting m.cellophane: Quote:
For "Becket", there is a credit that says "Based Upon the Play 'Becket'". Is that OMB or does it have to be OCB since it's "based on another work"? I would say OMB, but more importantly I can say that it wouldn't be. If the credit had happened to be "Based Upon the Play "Becket" Written by Jean Anouilh" we would still not have credited it in Profiler as "Written by Jean Anouilh", which is where Hal's logic would have led us. | | | My freeware tools for DVD Profiler users.
Gunnar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting m.cellophane: Quote:
I'm confused by the back and forth. Can we address some specific examples please.
For "Jack in the Beanstalk" (1952), there is a credit that reads "From a Story by". Am I allowed to include that as "Story by" or not, since "Story by" != "From a Story by"?
For "Becket", there is a credit that says "Based Upon the Play 'Becket'". Is that OMB or does it have to be OCB since it's "based on another work"?
Same question for "Missing" which has a credit reading "Based on the Book 'Missing'".
"Casino Royale" (2006) has a credit which reads "Based on the Novel". I didn't record in DVDP whether the name of the novel is noted in the credit or not.
"Thunderball" has credits reading "Based on an Original Screenplay" (OMB?) and "Based on the Original Story" ("Story by" or not, since "Based on the Original Story != "Story by"). The answer you are going to get is going to depend on who is giving the answer. For me, the words 'based on' are key. Whenever those words are in the credit, I give the person credited an OCB or OMB credit. If the film is an adaptation, meaning the story is pretty much the same, then it gets an OMB credit. If the film is a new story, using chatacters from the other work, then it is OCB. That is how I do it. You will, no doubt, get a completely different answer from at least two people in this thread. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Great> These problems are going to get worse and worse. There are a small handful who have managed to completely trash the system, I do not include You, Unicus, amongst this number with some of the ridiculous changes and Personal Preference based changes they have convinced Ken to make, they are not changes I would have made. Particularly in one instance where they can't even decide what the meaning is. I give up, this only going to get progressively. Wew hare on a path where Contributions are going to continue to be decrease going forward, and users will be more and more setting things up to suit themselves. It's easier than coming here and dealing with the endless arguments, circular logic and no logic. CONGRATULATIONS to all. You have been utterly mgnificent...NOT. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video | | | | Last edited: by Winston Smith |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 4,245 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting skipnet50: Quote:
Wew hare on a path where Contributions are going to continue to be decrease going forward, and users will be more and more setting things up to suit themselves. It's easier than coming here and dealing with the endless arguments, circular logic and no logic. CONGRATULATIONS to all. You have been utterly mgnificent...NOT.
Skip I know this is what I'm doing. Just not contributing cast/crew anymore. Like you said with the endless arguments of interpretations of the rules and what is or isn't something or what is or isn't allowed is becoming a real problem as far as I can tell. The way the program is now I can enter what I want (even those not allowed into the main database) and keep it all local. |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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