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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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Removing uncredited from a new release that was cloned from another DVD. |
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| Registered: March 14, 2007 |  Posts: 1,777 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Jubal: Quote:
Quoting mdnitoil:
Quote:
Quoting kdh1949:
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Quoting Ace_of_Sevens:
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Plus, many early films had no credits or only credited a couple people. Uncredited info is important.
Boy are you right about this, Ace. It really annoys me when I watch a movie from the 30s or 40s that has maybe 30 important characters in it but there are only 10 credited.
I'll agree with that. The only real problem I have is that the source for all of this amazing data is suspect. But, a long list of names certainly looks more impressive than a short list of names, regardless of accuracy.
 Sorry, sarcasm. The "old movie with short cast lists" argument is why we have piles of crap like Ziegfeld Follies in the online. It's not worth much, but it looks darn impressive. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 2,394 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting mdnitoil: Quote:
I'll agree with that. The only real problem I have is that the source for all of this amazing data is suspect. But, a long list of names certainly looks more impressive than a short list of names, regardless of accuracy. Maybe the source for all this "amazing" data is suspect. But I don't understand what you find "amazing" about it. It isn't uncommon for a large number of actors to be uncredited in older films, even those as recent as the 1960s. I don't know what the rules used to be about who got credited and who didn't, but there were a lot of people working on screen in these older films, many of them recognizable, who didn't get their name in the cast list. My point was not to get an impressive list of names or necessarily even a long one. What I want is to be able to put a name to the face of the characters I see in a film. Often, the producers have failed to give me that. It's one thing to exclude extras and minor walk-ons (like someone's drama teacher, from the poll in this forum). But it's quite another thing to exclude characters who are relevant to the film. Many of these actors can be accurately documented. If we were to remove all uncredited cast from the database we would lose a significant portion of data about these older films. | | | Another Ken (not Ken Cole)
Badges? We ain't got no badges. We don't need no badges. I don't have to show you any stinking badges.
DVD Profiler user since June 15, 2001 |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting mdnitoil: Quote:
Quoting Jubal:
Quote:
Quoting mdnitoil:
Quote:
Quoting kdh1949:
Quote:
Quoting Ace_of_Sevens:
Quote:
Plus, many early films had no credits or only credited a couple people. Uncredited info is important.
Boy are you right about this, Ace. It really annoys me when I watch a movie from the 30s or 40s that has maybe 30 important characters in it but there are only 10 credited.
I'll agree with that. The only real problem I have is that the source for all of this amazing data is suspect. But, a long list of names certainly looks more impressive than a short list of names, regardless of accuracy.
I suspected, midnit, but wasn't certain. Thanks
Sorry, sarcasm. The "old movie with short cast lists" argument is why we have piles of crap like Ziegfeld Follies in the online. It's not worth much, but it looks darn impressive. | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 1,777 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting kdh1949: Quote:
Quoting mdnitoil:
Quote:
I'll agree with that. The only real problem I have is that the source for all of this amazing data is suspect. But, a long list of names certainly looks more impressive than a short list of names, regardless of accuracy.
Maybe the source for all this "amazing" data is suspect. But I don't understand what you find "amazing" about it. It isn't uncommon for a large number of actors to be uncredited in older films, even those as recent as the 1960s. I don't know what the rules used to be about who got credited and who didn't, but there were a lot of people working on screen in these older films, many of them recognizable, who didn't get their name in the cast list.
My point was not to get an impressive list of names or necessarily even a long one. What I want is to be able to put a name to the face of the characters I see in a film. Often, the producers have failed to give me that. It's one thing to exclude extras and minor walk-ons (like someone's drama teacher, from the poll in this forum). But it's quite another thing to exclude characters who are relevant to the film. Many of these actors can be accurately documented. If we were to remove all uncredited cast from the database we would lose a significant portion of data about these older films. Generally speaking, I agree with you. I personally enjoy finding out about about those old character actors who had long careers but never received much billing. My only point is if the source of these old profiles is suspect, of what actual value is the data we currently have? I've tracked a few profiles over the years I've had this program. Most of the time, the old profiles were IMDB rips. What's so funny about it now is that when you do a check, they no longer match up. I'm not talking about minor role variances, but a bunch have been drastically modified. IMDB is slowly cleaning up their mess, while we remain a perfect snapshot of how they looked 5 years ago when we originally ripped them. Of course, we're not allowed to make any changes because we have to prove a negative (Joe Blow was not in the movie because I never saw him). A long time ago I argued that we should blow away the old uncredited lists and start to rebuild them. It was shot down because of all of the "valuable" data we would lose. I questioned the value then, as I do now. | | | | Last edited: by mdnitoil |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Little Ken:  Before the Rules we had no Rules, in fact someone had developed a <gasp> scaping tool that I think most all of us used, yes me too, I am just as lazy as the next man. Thus we had a lot of old (uncredited) data. Then one day it was discovered that Ken said that copying data from other sources was not allowed. Wsa that there ALL the time and had been overlooked or ignored or had he snuck in a change on us. Who knows, who cares, it set me to thinking for several years, with the end result being the Rules. There was a discussion in which ken did not want to get rid of the old data, I knew what would eventually happen and here is the proof. Like I explained to terry, midnit I was on the side of dynamiting the old data and slowly starting to rebuild the (uncredited) data but.... and as a result we have the problem. I don't really care how long a list of (uncredited) data is, as long as it is documented. Probably ther easiest method would be recognition via time stamp and perhaps description, if some other supporting doc can be found...marvelous the more the merrier. But , for example, I know Ward Bond on sight, most of the time anyway, and lots of other actors as well. Speaking personally I would hope that I would be to cross my headshots to the time stamp. If you can't provide documentation then don't include the listing it is that simople and please, please, please don't copy that old data BLINDLY from Profiler's bad old data. It has been grandfathered in but it has NOT been verified as accurate. All we are doing is multiplying likely errors. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video | | | | Last edited: by Winston Smith |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | As I said on page 1 of this thread, Ken...the one that counts...has made his position quite clear when it comes to uncredited cast. If people don't like that position, they need to get him to change his mind. Until he does, we have to live with the situation as it is. Those of us that do not want to, can simply highlight and click 'Remove'. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,394 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting mdnitoil: Quote:
Generally speaking, I agree with you. I personally enjoy finding out about about those old character actors who had long careers but never received much billing. My only point is if the source of these old profiles is suspect, of what actual value is the data we currently have?
I've tracked a few profiles over the years I've had this program. Most of the time, the old profiles were IMDB rips. What's so funny about it now is that when you do a check, they no longer match up. I'm not talking about minor role variances, but a bunch have been drastically modified. IMDB is slowly cleaning up their mess, while we remain a perfect snapshot of how they looked 5 years ago when we originally ripped them. Of course, we're not allowed to make any changes because we have to prove a negative (Joe Blow was not in the movie because I never saw him).
A long time ago I argued that we should blow away the old uncredited lists and start to rebuild them. It was shot down because of all of the "valuable" data we would lose. I questioned the value then, as I do now. I understand and share your concern. But I wonder if we mightn't be throwing the baby out with the bathwater by deleting all the undocumented/uncredited casts. Just because a cast list is a clone of IMDBs does't necessarily mean it is incorrect. While I know there's a lot of stuff in the database that probably doesn't belong there, I don't see any easy way to get rid of the bad while keeping the good. I would agree with culling out actors who are identified as "scene deleted" or "archival" or who have no role name shown. All that said, and back to the original topic, I agree that uncredited cast should be removed from any new release cloned from another DVD. | | | Another Ken (not Ken Cole)
Badges? We ain't got no badges. We don't need no badges. I don't have to show you any stinking badges.
DVD Profiler user since June 15, 2001 |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,394 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Jubal: Quote:
Little Ken: While I'm not Ken Cole, at 300 pounds I hardly fit the "Little Ken" nickname.  | | | Another Ken (not Ken Cole)
Badges? We ain't got no badges. We don't need no badges. I don't have to show you any stinking badges.
DVD Profiler user since June 15, 2001 |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Yeah, but Little Ken sounds so much cuter than Big Ken. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 5,494 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Jubal: Quote:
If you can't provide documentation then don't include the listing it is that simple and please, please, please don't copy that old data BLINDLY from Profiler's bad old data. It has been grandfathered in but it has NOT been verified as accurate. All we are doing is multiplying likely errors.
Skip Good point and where I bolded your line is why it is important at times to bring up two or three copies of the same title and compare them. If we find gross inaccuracys maybe the better way to fix these is not so much to post them here on the forum,, but to PM the contributor and get him/her to look at their own data with disc in hand and possibly finish off their initial and final contribution notes. I just did this recently for a title and got immediate results from this member .  | | | In the 60's, People took Acid to make the world Weird. Now the World is weird and People take Prozac to make it Normal.
Terry |
| | Registered: May 22, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,033 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting kdh1949: Quote:
I would agree with culling out actors who are identified as "scene deleted" or "archival" or who have no role name shown. actually, if it's identified as "scene deleted" it's against the rules Quote:
Do not list actors and crew who appear only in special features, or whose scenes were deleted from the main feature, even if they appear in special features Quote:
All that said, and back to the original topic, I agree that uncredited cast should be removed from any new release cloned from another DVD. I agree, uncredited should be exempt from being allowed to be cloned. Make it require documentation to be added. How hard is it to just copy from the contribution notes of the profile you are cloning. Actually, what would be nice is that uncredited cast had a text field attached to it that the documention for that entry was entered into. The other thing is that it should be made easier to document removal of invalid uncredited cast. one more thought that could help is if uncredited entries were treated separately from the rest of the cast, in other words a check box to contribute or not contribute uncredited. So it's in its own section. This allows those that want it to have it and those that don't care for it to still contribute actual cast listings -Agrare |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 1,777 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Agrare: Quote:
Quoting kdh1949:
Quote:
I would agree with culling out actors who are identified as "scene deleted" or "archival" or who have no role name shown.
actually, if it's identified as "scene deleted" it's against the rules
Quote:
Do not list actors and crew who appear only in special features, or whose scenes were deleted from the main feature, even if they appear in special features
Quote:
All that said, and back to the original topic, I agree that uncredited cast should be removed from any new release cloned from another DVD.
I agree, uncredited should be exempt from being allowed to be cloned. Make it require documentation to be added. How hard is it to just copy from the contribution notes of the profile you are cloning. Actually, what would be nice is that uncredited cast had a text field attached to it that the documention for that entry was entered into.
The other thing is that it should be made easier to document removal of invalid uncredited cast.
one more thought that could help is if uncredited entries were treated separately from the rest of the cast, in other words a check box to contribute or not contribute uncredited. So it's in its own section. This allows those that want it to have it and those that don't care for it to still contribute actual cast listings
-Agrare Gotta agree with that as it's probably the only way I'll be able to start contributing cast again. As it stands now, I end up having to keep it to myself when I do audits. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,394 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Agrare: Quote:
actually, if it's identified as "scene deleted" it's against the rules
Quote:
Do not list actors and crew who appear only in special features, or whose scenes were deleted from the main feature, even if they appear in special features
I know that's what the rule says, but I wouldn't bet the farm that there aren't some "scene deleted" credits in the legacy profiles. | | | Another Ken (not Ken Cole)
Badges? We ain't got no badges. We don't need no badges. I don't have to show you any stinking badges.
DVD Profiler user since June 15, 2001 |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting kdh1949: Quote:
Quoting Agrare:
Quote:
actually, if it's identified as "scene deleted" it's against the rules
Quote:
Do not list actors and crew who appear only in special features, or whose scenes were deleted from the main feature, even if they appear in special features
I know that's what the rule says, but I wouldn't bet the farm that there aren't some "scene deleted" credits in the legacy profiles. Bet the farm that there ARE. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,394 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Jubal: Quote:
Bet the farm that there ARE.
Skip I doubt that anyone familiar with our online database would take that bet. | | | Another Ken (not Ken Cole)
Badges? We ain't got no badges. We don't need no badges. I don't have to show you any stinking badges.
DVD Profiler user since June 15, 2001 |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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