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Does a song's first publication trump it's original intent?
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DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantgardibolt
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Registered: March 13, 2007
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Some of the posts upthread seem to suggest that ALL of the songs have to be original to the movie.  My understanding is that ANY songs that are original to the movie get credited to the songwriter.  Whether this particular one qualifies, I dunno but I guess I'd lean towards being qualified since a) it gets the credit in (isn't it weird NOT to have Pink Floyd credited for The Wall?) and b) it isn't on the original material.

I've done several drafts of a score/songwriter rule over in the Contribution Rules threads, which have had overwhelming support designed to deal with these issues, and Ken has ignored them so apparently he likes the rule as it is.
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributormdnitoil
Registered: March 14, 2007
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Quoting gardibolt:
Quote:
Some of the posts upthread seem to suggest that ALL of the songs have to be original to the movie.  My understanding is that ANY songs that are original to the movie get credited to the songwriter.  Whether this particular one qualifies, I dunno but I guess I'd lean towards being qualified since a) it gets the credit in (isn't it weird NOT to have Pink Floyd credited for The Wall?) and b) it isn't on the original material.

I've done several drafts of a score/songwriter rule over in the Contribution Rules threads, which have had overwhelming support designed to deal with these issues, and Ken has ignored them so apparently he likes the rule as it is.

Well, considering that the overwhelming majority of musical profiles have music crew credited in them, what's not to like?  It would be interesting to see if that changes if people start submitting wholesale removals...per that great rule.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorwidescreenforever
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Quoting widescreenforever:
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Bernard Hermann composed the eerie fantastic score for Cape Fear 1962 ,, .. and Note for Note that same music score was re- used in the 1991 film of Scorsese's Cape Fear .. Since the original was used for the 1962 theme , and the fact that Hermann died in 1976 .,  using the rules would stipulate you can't use the original music previously done for the original source (1962 soundtrack)  .
Therefore Hermann's composing credits would not be allowed for 1991 soundtrack? 
Do I have this right??

well 24 hours later  I must be right.. got no rebutals to this........... 
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Terry
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorwidescreenforever
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Quoting ninehours:
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I was always under the impression that all Music and Songs have to have been written specifically for the film to be credited under the rules

come to think of this.. wouldn't  U2's Rattle and Hum fall under this decison where the music came out three years before the album? .....    Therefore  no band credits ??/
In the 60's, People took Acid to make the world Weird. Now the World is weird and People take Prozac to make it Normal.

Terry
 Last edited: by widescreenforever
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorTracer
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For all other crew credits we take them from the screen using the accepted credited as field.  However for some reason, for the Composer credit, because the notes field says “Used for the composer of the film’s Original Score” we interpret that to mean only if the score was original written for the film being profiled.  And thus even though we have an on screen credit “Music Composed by” it is interpreted as we should not profile this credit.

Ken or Geri if you are reading this note field really should be “Used for the composer of the film’s score”.  While I can understand why we only profile “Original Songs, written specifically for the film” for the Song Writer credit.  Makes no sense to leave out the film’s composer just because it wasn’t original to the film.

Personally I feel that Musicals, Music, and Concert DVDs should have an exception to the Original Songs only rule.  I think just if we just remove the word “Original” form “the film’s Original Score” this should solve a big issue with Musicals or reused film scores.  Personally I don’t care if a composer’s score was used in more than one film.  To me this is no different than taking an actor from another film and using CGI and cleaver editing to make fit into another movie.  If they are credited then it should be profiled.
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorwidescreenforever
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Here Here .. 
In the 60's, People took Acid to make the world Weird. Now the World is weird and People take Prozac to make it Normal.

Terry
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I would even go as far as: Hear Hear... 
Hans
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Quoting widescreenforever:
Quote:
Bernard Hermann composed the eerie fantastic score for Cape Fear 1962 ,, .. and Note for Note that same music score was re- used in the 1991 film of Scorsese's Cape Fear .. Since the original was used for the 1962 theme , and the fact that Hermann died in 1976 .,  using the rules would stipulate you can't use the original music previously done for the original source (1962 soundtrack)  .
Therefore Hermann's composing credits would not be allowed for 1991 soundtrack? 
Do I have this right??


Are you really claiming that every single note for the 1991 score is exactly the same for the entire movie, from beginning to end, and if one were to remove all video and dialog, and listen only to the soundtrack of each of the movies, that they would be identical for the full length of the movie?  That would assume also that the running time for the two movies is identical; the closing credits are exactly the same length and use the exact same music.

The fact that a movie may incorporate "non-original" music into the score, does not negate that the score itself is "original" if it incorpoartes different elements or in a different sequence, or using a different musical arragement.

Songs are a different matter.  A previously created song that is inserted into the score of a movie should not be included in the DVDP credits.  I really don't care if it's a musical or not.
Hal
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I've seen the 1991 Cape Fear  a number of times and this week had occasion to watch and study the 1962 film  of the same title.. It was so creepy to hear that soundtrack in 2.0 hi fi .  it was identical to the remade 1991 film.. I then listened to all the little ambient underlying music and it was the same as well. and of course the composer in both films/credits is  credited the same.:-  Composer Bernard Hermann .
Knowing that he died in 1976 I don't think they brought him back in to redo the theme . Nor was the credits acknowledging another orchestral group using the same material .
It was remixed into the final edit of Scorsese film.

just checked wiki on the 1991 title and it states as well that Scorcese retained the rights to the Hermann score ..
In the 60's, People took Acid to make the world Weird. Now the World is weird and People take Prozac to make it Normal.

Terry
 Last edited: by widescreenforever
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
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you didn't know any of that, terry?

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Billy Video
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorwidescreenforever
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shouldn't your question be address to Hal??
In the 60's, People took Acid to make the world Weird. Now the World is weird and People take Prozac to make it Normal.

Terry
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar Contributorhal9g
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Quoting widescreenforever:
Quote:
I've seen the 1991 Cape Fear  a number of times and this week had occasion to watch and study the 1962 film  of the same title.. It was so creepy to hear that soundtrack in 2.0 hi fi .  it was identical to the remade 1991 film.. I then listened to all the little ambient underlying music and it was the same as well. and of course the composer in both films/credits is  credited the same.:-  Composer Bernard Hermann .
Knowing that he died in 1976 I don't think they brought him back in to redo the theme . Nor was the credits acknowledging another orchestral group using the same material .
It was remixed into the final edit of Scorsese film.

just checked wiki on the 1991 title and it states as well that Scorcese retained the rights to the Hermann score ..


Given that, and you have to admit this is a rare occurrence, I would certainly give Hermann a credit in the 1991 version.

And no, I haven't compared the two, although I do own both.
Hal
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Quoting Tracer:
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For all other crew credits we take them from the screen using the accepted credited as field.  However for some reason, for the Composer credit, because the notes field says “Used for the composer of the film’s Original Score” we interpret that to mean only if the score was original written for the film being profiled.  And thus even though we have an on screen credit “Music Composed by” it is interpreted as we should not profile this credit.

Ken or Geri if you are reading this note field really should be “Used for the composer of the film’s score”.  While I can understand why we only profile “Original Songs, written specifically for the film” for the Song Writer credit.  Makes no sense to leave out the film’s composer just because it wasn’t original to the film.

Personally I feel that Musicals, Music, and Concert DVDs should have an exception to the Original Songs only rule.  I think just if we just remove the word “Original” form “the film’s Original Score” this should solve a big issue with Musicals or reused film scores.  Personally I don’t care if a composer’s score was used in more than one film.  To me this is no different than taking an actor from another film and using CGI and cleaver editing to make fit into another movie.  If they are credited then it should be profiled.

If memory serves, the reason for it being limited to the films original score is because that, along with original songs, are what is eligible for awards.  The question remains, do we want to comingle original with unoriginal?
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
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Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote:
Quoting Tracer:
Quote:
For all other crew credits we take them from the screen using the accepted credited as field.  However for some reason, for the Composer credit, because the notes field says “Used for the composer of the film’s Original Score” we interpret that to mean only if the score was original written for the film being profiled.  And thus even though we have an on screen credit “Music Composed by” it is interpreted as we should not profile this credit.

Ken or Geri if you are reading this note field really should be “Used for the composer of the film’s score”.  While I can understand why we only profile “Original Songs, written specifically for the film” for the Song Writer credit.  Makes no sense to leave out the film’s composer just because it wasn’t original to the film.

Personally I feel that Musicals, Music, and Concert DVDs should have an exception to the Original Songs only rule.  I think just if we just remove the word “Original” form “the film’s Original Score” this should solve a big issue with Musicals or reused film scores.  Personally I don’t care if a composer’s score was used in more than one film.  To me this is no different than taking an actor from another film and using CGI and cleaver editing to make fit into another movie.  If they are credited then it should be profiled.

If memory serves, the reason for it being limited to the films original score is because that, along with original songs, are what is eligible for awards.  The question remains, do we want to comingle original with unoriginal?


Especially given the nightmarish oproportions that many movies have when it comes to Music/Songs.

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Outta here

Billy Video
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If at all, it should be limited to the Music and Musical genres.
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Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
Songs are a different matter.  A previously created song that is inserted into the score of a movie should not be included in the DVDP credits.  I really don't care if it's a musical or not.



Just in case anyone mis-read or mis-interpetted my original post, the credits I removed were songwriting and not composer. Not sure if that changes anyone's feelings about this issue, but feel it's relevent enough to mention again.
Bottom line:
Song writen - 1979
Song released (to/in movie/first appearance of) 1982

I don't recall anything in the credits that would be a composer credit, I'm almost positive the songs were all individually credited with each having it's own writing credits.
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