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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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Unit Crew members |
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| Registered: March 14, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 4,245 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote:
@ mreeder50...we DO enter the VFX crew, assuming they match the crew chart, that are listed at the end of the film.
Except, I hope, the ones that are credited under some form of "Additional Visual Effects", right? Most of the time the credit will read something like this. "Additional Visual Effects by <Company Name>" and then the people who worked for that company and they usually are credited with what is allowed by the rules table. Such as "<Name> Visual Effects Supervisor" So being that Visual Effects Supervisor is listed in the rules I see no reason not to include them. We don't credit companies so the company credit should have no bearing on an individuals credit imho. However, if an individual is credited with "Additional Visual Effects" by credit then I wouldn't include them as this would be the same as "Additional Music" by credit imho. |
|   | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting CubbyUps: Quote:
Quoting T!M:
Quote:
Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote:
@ mreeder50...we DO enter the VFX crew, assuming they match the crew chart, that are listed at the end of the film.
Except, I hope, the ones that are credited under some form of "Additional Visual Effects", right?
Most of the time the credit will read something like this.
"Additional Visual Effects by <Company Name>"
and then the people who worked for that company and they usually are credited with what is allowed by the rules table.
Such as "<Name> Visual Effects Supervisor" That's exactly what I meant. So there's one or more big "visual effects supervisor" listed in either the opening credits or early on in the end credits - that's the one we're after - and then at the very end, there's an "additional visual effects" header with one or more "visual effects supervisor" credits under it. IMHO, these should not be entered: you can't separate the header from the credit. Anything under the "additional visual effects" header is still additional, and we don't credit anything "additional". No additional sound editors, no additional editors, no additional music, and therefore also no additional visual effects. | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 4,245 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
That's exactly what I meant. So there's one or more big "visual effects supervisor" listed in either the opening credits or early on in the end credits - that's the one we're after - and then at the very end, there's an "additional visual effects" header with one or more "visual effects supervisor" credits under it. IMHO, these should not be entered: you can't separate the header from the credit. Anything under the "additional visual effects" header is still additional, and we don't credit anything "additional". No additional sound editors, no additional editors, no additional music, and therefore also no additional visual effects. Who said that we're after the big "visual effects supervisor"? I don't remember seeing that anywhere in the rules. Visual Effects Supervisors are, so I enter them regardless of where they appear in the credits. From the rules. [quote]List individual credits only, not company name credits.[/quote] Which, to me, means that we list those individuals listed under company names such as Skywalker Sound, ILM, Lola Visual Effects and others. But we don't include the company names as a credit. I don't see anything that forbids their inclusion. Just a quick look at some of the company credits that are credited with "Additional Visual Effects" at least once in my own local database are. Industrial Light & Magic (National Treasure 2, Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow, The Haunting, Titanic) And I'm quite sure that many of the smaller visual effects companies are often credited with "Additional Visual Effects" The point I'm making is that many of these have all ready been entered into the main database and to now say that just because the company credit reads "Additional Visual Effects" that we must now delete all of these credits for the profiles is something I disagree with. I only look at the individual credit and the company credit has no bearing at all imho. Now if it the individual credit looked something like this: "Additional Visual Effects by ILM Additional Visual Effects Supervisor Dennis Muren" then no, I wouldn't credit/contribute Dennis Muren (But I would locally). Since "Additional Visual Effects Supervisor" isn't in the rules as allowed. |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting CubbyUps: Quote:
Now if it the individual credit looked something like this:
"Additional Visual Effects by ILM
Additional Visual Effects Supervisor Dennis Muren"
then no, I wouldn't credit/contribute Dennis Muren (But I would locally). Since "Additional Visual Effects Supervisor" isn't in the rules as allowed. What's the difference between that and: "Additional Visual Effects by ILM Visual Effects Supervisor: Dennis Muren" It's exactly the same thing, IMHO. Why would you treat one different than the other?  |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 4,245 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
Quoting CubbyUps:
Quote:
Now if it the individual credit looked something like this:
"Additional Visual Effects by ILM
Additional Visual Effects Supervisor Dennis Muren"
then no, I wouldn't credit/contribute Dennis Muren (But I would locally). Since "Additional Visual Effects Supervisor" isn't in the rules as allowed.
What's the difference between that and:
"Additional Visual Effects by ILM
Visual Effects Supervisor: Dennis Muren"
It's exactly the same thing, IMHO. Why would you treat one different than the other? Very simply. One credit is for the company and one is for the individual. Visual Effects Supervisor is allowed, Additional Visual Effects Supervisor isn't. The company credit has no bearing on the individual credit imho. |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting CubbyUps: Quote:
Visual Effects Supervisor is allowed, Additional Visual Effects Supervisor isn't. My point exactly. And for that, it doesn't matter whether the word "Additional" is right before "Visual", or of it's above it in a header format. They're both still "additional visual effects supervisor" credits, and as such, shouldn't be listed. Company credits don't even enter into it. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | I actually agree with Cubby because of the nature of VFX. I have some films where there are a half dozen different companies responsible for different types of VFX and SFX...one does digital, another does miniatures, another does pyro, another does monsters, etc. These are not 'unit crew'. They are primary VFX and SFX crews that focus on specific types of effects and should be entered. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote:
I actually agree with Cubby because of the nature of VFX. I have some films where there are a half dozen different companies responsible for different types of VFX and SFX...one does digital, another does miniatures, another does pyro, another does monsters, etc. These are not 'unit crew'. They are primary VFX and SFX crews that focus on specific types of effects and should be entered. Still: what's the difference with additional editors, or additional re-recording mixers? There as well, the credits list the "main" person/people, and then some "additional" ones. We've always left anything "additional" out - should we now start including all of those? And if not - why? Something vague as "because of the nature of VFX" really doesn't result in consistent data entry, I'm afraid.  For the record: I'm not arguing that these are "unit crew". I'm just arguing that we've never entered anything "additional" in any category, that I don't see how this is any different, and that I feel that if we're going to do this, we can't maintain the principle at all. If this goes in, then IMHO anything "additional" is in. Either we consistently enter "additional" something as something accross the board, or we don't. | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 4,245 |
| | Posted: | | | | I think it boils down to the fact that with how complicated visual effects are now days that films requires multiple visual effects companies to do all the visual effects for a film. Not like older films when a single company could do it or even just a handful of people.
About 98% of the time the end credits contain many visual effects companies with many people credited under each visual effects companies.
I don't think this is any different than say when I see a few sound credits listed and then under Skywalker Sound I see credits for Sound Editors. Just because these people work for a company shouldn't mean they don't get credited.
As long as the credit is allowed by the rules, then I see no problem. How the company itself is credited should have no bearing on the credit for the individual. |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting CubbyUps: Quote:
How the company itself is credited should have no bearing on the credit for the individual. You keep talking about companies, but that has no bearing on the matter whatsoever.  |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 4,245 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
Quoting CubbyUps:
Quote:
How the company itself is credited should have no bearing on the credit for the individual.
You keep talking about companies, but that has no bearing on the matter whatsoever. Um, yes it does because you are applying the company credit "Additional Visual Effects <Company Name> to those listed under that and I am assuming adding that to the individual credit. Hence "Additional Visual Effects Visual Effects Supervisor <Name>" when the actual individual credit only reads "Visual Effects Supervisor <Name>". Unless I misread your statements. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | I have to agree with cubby here, tim. While i understand what you are saying, because of the way Hollyweird typically sets up their Credits, the Company names add Context to the data, as opposed to just a bunch of names that are essentially disconnected. Though at the same time, currently the Rules do not allow for company names, and most of the time i agree with the basis for the rule. This is not something that typically is seen (there are exceptions) outside of the Effects side, and that particular company data adds context to the associated names.
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| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 20,111 |
| | Posted: | | | | I have to agree with Cubby here also. | | | | Corey |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting CubbyUps: Quote:
Unless I misread your statements. I'm afraid that is indeed the case. I'm not looking at company names, just at the fact that there's already a "visual effects supervisor" credited, and then there's some "additional" visual effects crew. IMHO, we always track the "main" people, but leave out those credited as "additional". Again: there's no difference whatsoever between this and say, "additional music by", which I'm sure you'll agree we leave out. Sure, that person did compose some additional original music for the film, but he is not the film's main composer, and therefore we don't enter him. This is the exact same thing: sure, the person did provide some additional visual effects, but he's not the film's main visual effects supervisor, and therefore we don't enter him. I honestly can't see the difference - if we're going to allow this, you can't possibly say no to "additional music by" either. Quoting Prof. Kingsfield: Quote:
Though at the same time, currently the Rules do not allow for company names, and most of the time i agree with the basis for the rule. Same here. Again, though, that has nothing to do with the matter at hand. | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 4,245 |
| | Posted: | | | | The main difference between "Additional Music by" credit and someone listed under "Additional Visual Effects by ILM" (for example) is that the Additional Music by credit is for an individual.
Whereas the Visual Effects credit is for someone who works for a company. The credit for the company has no bearing on the person who works for them.
Should those that work for Skywalker Sound be allowed? Those people work for a company. If other sound crew is already credited before them, then by your logic the Skywalker Sound people wouldn't be credited either.
If you're going to say that it should be applied to the Visual Effects credits then it should also be applied to the Sound crew.
What about those that work for a Makeup Effects Company such as KNB EFX GROUP? Since they work for a company they shouldn't be entered either since other Makeup people would be credited before them.
So if we do apply your belief then quite a bit of credits wouldn't be allowed anymore.
To put it simply there is nothing in the rules that forbids including visual effects credits for those that work for a company. As long as the individual credit is allowed, then it should be entered.
Whereas "Additional Music by" isn't in the rules and isn't allowed. |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting CubbyUps: Quote:
Should those that work for Skywalker Sound be allowed? Those people work for a company. If other sound crew is already credited before them, then by your logic the Skywalker Sound people wouldn't be credited either. Not if the header said "Additional Sound Editing By". Again, it's not about the company - it's about the "additional". Are you seriously saying that any sound editors listed under a "Additional Sound Editing By" heading should be entered? Again, it's the same for every category. You mention make-up effects: well, there again, I diligently enter every "make-up effects" credit, but I leave out any "additional make-up effects". It's a really simple, consistent approach that works accross the board: no "additional" anything. No if's, no but's, no nothing. | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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