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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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Location Unit Credits |
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| Registered: March 18, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 2,550 |
| | Posted: | | | | lol. Honestly, I never noticed it before...  BTW, my personal opinion is to include it. Don't know about other cases, but in this one the woman who is the art director held the same position in a feature film (Broken Flowers), and yes they are the same person. Just seems to me when it comes to Location Units, it's useful since they could also work on major motion pictures or be the normal person at that position on another show or something. But, I wanted to know any concensus before I went on with this... | | | | Last edited: by The Movieman |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote:
"Unit" crew have always been excluded from DVDP.
Why does this keep coming up?  Because the rules don't say they have to be excluded. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | They also do not say that "Grips" are excluded.
Are you suggesting that any crew that is not specifically excluded should be allowed?
There is no DVDP credit for a "Unit" anything. | | | | Hal |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote:
They also do not say that "Grips" are excluded. There is no 'grip' credit in DVDP so this is a red fish. Quote:
Are you suggesting that any crew that is not specifically excluded should be allowed? No, I am suggesting that we include any crew member that has a coresponding DVDP credit...which is what the rules rell us to do. Quote:
There is no DVDP credit for a "Unit" anything. No, but there is a DVDP credit for 'Art Director' and, unless I am missing something, the credit simply reads "Art Director". It does not read "Unit Art Director". The rules specificaly mention 2 'unit' credits that are not allowed: Unit Directors and Unit Photographers. Somehow these two specific credits morphed into all unit crew. While I understand the reason it happened, it is not a rule. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 18, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,550 |
| | Posted: | | | | Yeah, in this case it does not say "Unit Art Director" or anything, just "Art Director". I'm still working on this (it'll take a while) so I'll leave it in and check back with this thread before submitted it in case Gerri or Ken chime in. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | NURSE where are my meds!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 3,830 |
| | Posted: | | | | | | | | Sources for one or more of the changes and/or additions were not submitted. Please include the sources for your changes in the contribution notes, especially for cast and crew additions. | | | | Last edited: by ? |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 |  Posts: 2,366 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
However, instead of having to discuss this again week after week, it would be helpful if Ken or Gerri could chime in and settle this one way or the other, preferably through a quick update to that credits table. I can't help but feeling that so many recurring topics could be laid to rest if only Invelos would act on threads like this... I can't help the feeling they do not want to answer this question because they are afraid for a massive stream of additions or removals concerning this matter. | | | Martin Zuidervliet
DVD Profiler Nederlands |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Unicus69: Quote:
Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
They also do not say that "Grips" are excluded.
There is no 'grip' credit in DVDP so this is a red fish. What if I felt like it was close enough to a Cinematographer and added it as such? OK, there is no prohibition for assistant producer. Should it be allowed? There is no prohibition to associate art director. Should it be allowed. I think you understood precisely what I was driving at. You cannot expect the Rules to exclude everything that is not allowed. It identifies what is allowed, therefore anything else is not allowed. This is the standard of all legal contracts (yeah, I know it's not a leagl document, but the concept still applies.) Quoting Unicus69: Quote:
Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
Are you suggesting that any crew that is not specifically excluded should be allowed?
No, I am suggesting that we include any crew member that has a coresponding DVDP credit...which is what the rules rell us to do. But there is no credit in DVDP for Unit crew memebers. To credit them the same way as the "film" level crew members is once again shoehorning credits into the database for people who have very different jobs and making it appear that they are the same. Quoting Unicus69: Quote:
Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
There is no DVDP credit for a "Unit" anything.
No, but there is a DVDP credit for 'Art Director' and, unless I am missing something, the credit simply reads "Art Director". It does not read "Unit Art Director". More semantics. You know very well that it is listed under a divider for "UNIT XXX". The fact that it is separated from the regular credits should be eveidence enough that these people are not equivalent to the other crew. But, apparently some people are not capable of figuring that out! Quoting Unicus69: Quote:
The rules specificaly mention 2 'unit' credits that are not allowed: Unit Directors and Unit Photographers. Somehow these two specific credits morphed into all unit crew. While I understand the reason it happened, it is not a rule. Again, the fact that others are not prohibited does not mean that they are permitted. I never siad it was a rule, I said we have never done it in the past...for a very good reason. And if you really want to play this silly game to its ultimate conclusion, the only valid credit for Art Director in the Rules crew table says the film credit must be "Supervising Art". So it must be time to remove all of the "Art Directors" from the database! | | | | Hal | | | | Last edited: by hal9g |
| | Registered: August 22, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,807 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMovieman: Quote:
Didn't know how else to describe this, but I'm working on a TV series and was wondering if I should include the art director (or any other crew member) under something like "New York Unit". In this one instance, the art director for the NY Unit is in the database and that person has worked before (in my collection it was a feature film).
So, do I include crews in other location units? Personally, I would NOT include unit Art Directors (unless they are the only Art Directors in the credits). There are different opinions on this recurring topic, but it seems to me that a large majority of users is for NOT including any unit crew. If you are in doubt, I would follow their advice, if anything else for consistency sake. As to the reasons for not contributing a unit Art Director, I think Tim explained them well in a recent post in another thread. Quoting T!M: Quote:
...As with previous debates on various crew segments: we can't enter them all since we don't have a way to show the difference in DVD Profiler. The rules seem very clear in how to deal with unit crew: we're clearly not allowed to list unit directors, nor unit cinematographers. It's true that someone forgot the include the same note in the "Incorrect Roles" column for art directors, but the intent seems clear: we're not after unit crew. If we can't list a unit director or a unit cinematographer, why would you want include unit art directors? Either we track unit crew, or we don't. Not just one little segment of them - and even if we were tracking these, I'd be certainly be more interested in unit directors, not art directors. Like all other crew segments, we're after the main art director(s), usually listed somewhere at the beginning of the end credits. We're not after loads of additional unit crew buried somewhere deep down in those credits - we might as well start entering every unit's production sound mixer. Again, there's no way to differentiate between these people in DVD Profiler, and therefore we don't include unit crew. I see just one exception to that reasoning, and that's when the uniti Art Director is the only one in the credits. That said, I also understand that it's a gray area and the rules are not really clear on this topic, so it's a matter of interpretation. That's why I would personally not enter unit crew and I would recommend not to enter then, but still I would not vote NO to other users entering them if they really want it. | | | | -- Enry |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | It's not a gray area at all, Enry, we do NOT include Location/Unit Crew PERIOD. Your rationale is only good for your local. Now I understand you, Enry, you look for things which you can claim are GRAY areas and therefore can do whatever you want, thus creating constant controversy.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video | | | | Last edited: by Winston Smith |
| | Registered: August 22, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,807 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting skipnet50: Quote:
It's not a gray area at all, Enry, we do NOT include Location/Unit Crew PERIOD. Your rationale is only good for your local. Now I understand you, Enry, you look for things which you can claim are GRAY areas and therefore can do whatever you want, thus creating constant controversy.
Skip Please read the forum rules before posting. Quote:
"Bannable" offenses include,...
Repeated harassment of another member | | | | -- Enry |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | I actually had an entire post that addressed each of Hal's statements. It was long and had a sarcastic tone to it. Rather than subject everyone to another one of those kinds of posts, I decided to give just the bottom line...
I have a very simple standard when it comes to entering crew credits:
Does the film credit match the credit listed in the 'Role' column?
Does the film credit match the credit listed in the 'Credited As' column?
If the answer to either of those questions is 'yes', then the person can be entered into the profile.
Disclaimer: I am speaking only about R1 films where the crew credits match the DVDP crew table. I do realize that some interpretation is required for non-R1 films. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar | | | | Last edited: by TheMadMartian |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | I am not harassing you, enry. I am trying very hard to understand you. That is my observation, of you, I don't much care whether you like it or not. but you seem to take delight in trying to take advantage of any loophole you can locate and then turnb it into a controversy, Frighten me...yoiu don't.
Eveery issue you have raised since you joined last August are all very old and have been cussed, discussed and recussed some more and your raising them has been has appeared to nothing more that a deliberate attempt to cause problems. I would suggest that you take a look at yourself and your attitude, I will stand up and call you on it every time you time you try to poke another hole in the rules, that is not harassment, it is calling you for your misbehavior. I will call you on it publicly, instead of standing behind a wall and taking shots anonymously.
I have the absolute right to voice my observations and my opinion of you, Enry. I have tried to chalk it up to being relatively new, but that no longer seems to apply. I cxould make some further observations but they would be a waste of time, the most important one has been made.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video | | | | Last edited: by Winston Smith |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Unicus69: Quote:
I actually had an entire post that addressed each of Hal's statements. It was long and had a sarcastic tone to it. Rather than subject everyone to another one of those kinds of posts, I decided to give just the bottom line...
I have a very simple standard when it comes to entering crew credits:
Does the film credit match the credit listed in the 'Role' column?
Does the film credit match the credit listed in the 'Credited As' column?
If the answer to either of those questions is 'yes', then the person can be entered into the profile.
Disclaimer: I am speaking only about R1 films where the crew credits match the DVDP crew table. I do realize that some interpretation is required for non-R1 films. Being the word parser extra-ordinaire that you are, please pay attention to exactly what the Rules say: Quoting Rules: Quote:
For each category, include only those people credited with the roles listed in the "Film Credits to Include" column. Technically, there is no column called "Film Credits to Include", however, if this is to be interpreted as the "Credited As" column in the table, then we cannot include the credit listed in the "Role" column (Art Director). Does it make sense? Absolutely not, but it is what the Rules state, and that is what your argument is all about; a literal translation of the Rules. By this point in the history of the program, it should be evident that trying to insist on a literal trasnlation of the Rules is an exercise in futility and would render the database pretty much useless. There are certian conventions that have been accepted practice for the 8+ years that I've been hanging out around here, and not entering "Unit" crew is one of those, as you well know. Why in the world would we want to open up this can of worms? What is the objective? I really fail to see what motivates these "positions". People can place whatever they like in their local databases. Why is it that everyone with a "bright new idea" or some newly discovered credit has to be accommodated into a database that has been painstakingly built by this community over years of effort? Just because we can parse the Rules to allow it? Sorry, but the question is not whether the Rules allow it, but whether it is the right thing to do for the majority of the user base. Personally, I don't think so. | | | | Hal |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Hal: You and me both. You and me both. Though i do have my theories. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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